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Avengers: Endgame (spoilers thread)

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    Avengers: Endgame (spoilers thread)

    So are people seeing Endgame? What did you think of it?

    We just got back and its 3am, so our impressions will have to wait until tomorrow.

    #2
    I thoroughly enjoyed it. They did well squeezing so much into it and focusing on characters rather than people punching each other. Some highlights for me were Rogers picking up Mjolnir and batting his shield around with it. Fat Thor and of course Korg playing Fortnite. The comedy aspects were well handled not as forced as it can feel sometimes. Past Gamora’s reaction to Quill and Nebula telling her it was that or a tree was funny.
    The lift scene at Shield HQ was good and an obvious nod to Winter Soldier. Interesting that instead of fighting his way out he whispered his way out. Also when Rogers ducks into the office in 1970 and the name Carter is on the door I thought he’s not going back but it’s really just the setup for his ending. I assume as he was returning the stones he fiddled with his time GPS then destroyed it.
    Surprising to see the endings for the three leads not all be positive after Widows sacrifice. Given the gap in power between most of the original Avengers and Danvers I suppose they would look out of place so best they’re out of it.
    I do have to point out the somewhat heavy handed girl power scene just seemed kind of tacked on.

    I think might go to see this again as it seems like one of those films you get a lot more from after a second viewing.

    Comment


      #3
      [MENTION=5941]Asura[/MENTION] and I have the same sort of opinion on the film (We really enjoyed it with some minor flaws) so I'll leave him to go into details on what we thought as a whole.

      One thing I will say is the whole "You need to watch Captain Marvel before Endgame" was such a fad. You could have easily watched Endgame without knowing who she was, only knowing that she was a good person enough for Fury to call for help and she has super powers. END OFF. You could have even have released Captain Marvel AFTER Endgame, similar to Black panther's back story being released after his intro in Civil War.

      However, we only gave Ant-man another chance and the sequel a watch just before seeing this and I would say both were obviously essential viewing. Funnily, as soon as we got past where we stopped watching Ant-man before (watched it late one night and wasnt too into continuing the next day) we really liked it, especially the second one.

      I would actually go and see Endgame again at the cinema which I didn't really have a pull to watch again with Infinity war (saw it again just before Christmas on bluray)

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        #4
        I really enjoyed it, thought it was fantastic. Loved those character moments you mentioned @CMcK, and I thought the various endings for characters were great ways to move them out of the franchise.

        There were a few oddities though.

        Firstly, Captain Marvel. I'm pretty sure that Disney communicated that people should see the movie because Danvers would play a key role in Endgame. Of course, this was a way to try and get more bums on seats for CM, and sure, it probably worked (I mean we went to see it). However, she actually plays almost no part in the events of Endgame, from a narrative perspective. She turns up, she does some stuff, but all you needed to know about her was that (1) she exists and (2) she's basically Superman. The scenes with her at the start of the movie were a bit weird, and felt kinda disjointed; part of me feels there's a lot of "movie" that was left on the cutting room floor there, because the final cut is 3hrs long, CM was a recent movie and they wanted to get the plot moving as fast as they could.

        I had a similar thing with Hulk's narrative. The events of Infinity War kinda set up that we were going to get "something" with Hulk, like some major pivot for his character, to explain why Banner couldn't go green. I get that Hulk's thing is that Banner has managed to integrate both sides of his personality into a functioning middleground, which was an interesting way to take the Hulk, but whatever let him do that happened offscreen. This makes me think that the bit in Infinity War where Banner says something like "we got stuff to work through, buddy" set up a narrative payoff that we never got. This is maybe our fault as an audience because we built it up after the discussions of why Banner's appearance in Infinity War changed between the trailer and the final movie.

        Also, some weirdness over the time travel. Personally I'm not a huge fan of time travel in movies, but certainly there are films which do it really well. That being said, I need to watch it again to work out two things - firstly, how did Cap and Iron Man travel back to the 70s, when the movie had gone to lengths to establish that they could only do one round trip through time? Secondly, how was Cap there at the end of the movie as an old man, when they'd established that going back in time was like going into an alternate reality? Now, obviously, I'm not going to be a prick about it; the reason for the former was because Cap and Stark in the 70s offered some good character beats, and because the bit at the end was a sweet way to end Cap's journey, but I'd be curious watching it again to see if I missed something.

        I think, overall, the movie wasn't quite able to escape what seems to happen to movies where they are split into two parts, despite all the marketing spiel about changing its name. Like how parts of the first act felt disjointed and the movie was loaded with character moments in the middle. It's strange because it was a very different movie to Infinity War, which was very "dense", almost relentless with its pace. However, once the movie got going, it picked up until the final battle was like a crescendo.

        Parking all this nit-picking though, the movie had some awesome set-pieces and wonderful scenes. I loved the scene with Hulk and the Sorceror Supreme, the bit with Thor and his mum, and particularly liked the bit where Cap picks up the hammer. The movies are always a difficult balancing-act, using all these characters and trying to get the best out of them, but I thought they did very well, again. It was also quite brave of them to hinge so much of the movie on Ant-Man, but I thought Scott Lang's character was well-used and got good mileage out of Rudd's comic chops.

        The thing I liked the most though was how it was a proper ending. Obviously the MCU continues, that's fine, but they resisted the temptation to leave everyone's stories open, and very firmly closed some of them off. After the Iron Man death fakeout in Infinity War, I felt they really needed to do that. It also makes me interested to see (maybe after a 2yr break) where the MCU goes from here; gotta assume we're going to see an MCU version of the X-Men that leads to something like the Phoenix Saga.

        Oh, on that note, and we had a trailer before the movie for Fox's final attempt to destroy any credibility for the X-Men franchise. I guess they had to pay for that advert slot, but it was weird to see what looked like such a terrible Marvel-themed movie advertised when we were about to watch a good one.

        EDIT: Something I just realised; was War Machine really even in it? I mean he had some funny moments, but I mean did he take part in the end battle? I can't recall. Wasn't his armour destroyed in the raid on the Avengers HQ? I used to like War Machine as a kid so I've always liked Cheadle's role.
        Last edited by Asura; 27-04-2019, 10:07.

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Asura View Post
          Also, some weirdness over the time travel. Personally I'm not a huge fan of time travel in movies, but certainly there are films which do it really well. That being said, I need to watch it again to work out two things - firstly, how did Cap and Iron Man travel back to the 70s, when the movie had gone to lengths to establish that they could only do one round trip through time?
          They only had one set of Pym particles each to get back to the future however Tony was aware that the Tesseract and Hank Pym were both in the same place at the same time so they could go back to 1970, pick up the Tesseract and replenish their supplies of Pym particles to make a return trip to the future. Cap picks up 4 vials for him and Stark to return and for the following trip to return the stones from where they came from. After thinking a lot more about it the time travel in the film is pretty sound and it does work.

          Comment


            #6
            Ignore - Arashikage beat me to it.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Arashikage View Post
              They only had one set of Pym particles each to get back to the future however Tony was aware that the Tesseract and Hank Pym were both in the same place at the same time so they could go back to 1970, pick up the Tesseract and replenish their supplies of Pym particles to make a return trip to the future. Cap picks up 4 vials for him and Stark to return and for the following trip to return the stones from where they came from. After thinking a lot more about it the time travel in the film is pretty sound and it does work.
              Yep, you're absolutely right. Now you've said that I remember, I mean that's what Cap was doing during the sequence.

              Comment


                #8
                So how come they made a big fuss about not being able to change the past, hence travelling to different times in different dimensions; only for the movie to break its own rules by having Steve Rogers travel back in time and change the past by living all the way through it to the end of the movie ?

                I mean, he literally undid the existence of other people who he met in previous films by stopping them being born!
                That’s literally exactly what they said they couldn’t do to thanos!
                Last edited by EvilBoris; 27-04-2019, 20:15.

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                  #9
                  my only question is who the heck are the 3 people at the back of the funeral, before it panned to Marvel and Fury? was skinny teen lad, a women i think was from winter soldier and some old man.

                  Think i can easily let the time travel plot holes go around Steve getting his retirement package, i;m ok with that, i'll just assume he lived a quiet life that barely effected the timeline. I could pick bones around not using the gems again, why couldn't anyone with mega powers like Marvel use the glove again, it won't kill her(probably not even hurt her, being a superman) and she could get Ironman back again.. or just use the life stone on it's own.

                  One thing i would have liked, is a proper goodbye for widow (and maybe vision) like the jedi space ghost looking on some soul gem magic when getting it ready to be send back.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by EvilBoris View Post
                    So how come they made a big fuss about not being able to change the past, hence travelling to different times in different dimensions; only for the movie to break its own rules by having Steve Rogers travel back in time and change the past by living all the way through it to the end of the movie ?

                    I mean, he literally undid the existence of other people who he met in previous films by stopping them being born!
                    That’s literally exactly what they said they couldn’t do to thanos!
                    They explained it by saying earlier in the film that time was basically a continuous stream. So Rogers traveling to the past meant that his past, which is from the point of the observer the future, wouldn’t be affected. So as 2019 Rogers gets in on with Agent Carter in the 50s his past life is still being played out as before. He has enough knowledge of his life and the events connected to it to not interfere. It does raise questions about what Agent Carter did with her life though and did it change things at Shield?

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Tobal View Post
                      my only question is who the heck are the 3 people at the back of the funeral, before it panned to Marvel and Fury? was skinny teen lad, a women i think was from winter soldier and some old man.
                      When watching the film I recognized everyone bar the teen lad but it turns out he’s the lad from Iron Man 3. The other two your thinking of may be the Pyms from Ant Man?

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by CMcK View Post
                        They explained it by saying earlier in the film that time was basically a continuous stream. So Rogers traveling to the past meant that his past, which is from the point of the observer the future, wouldn’t be affected. So as 2019 Rogers gets in on with Agent Carter in the 50s his past life is still being played out as before. He has enough knowledge of his life and the events connected to it to not interfere. It does raise questions about what Agent Carter did with her life though and did it change things at Shield?
                        Yeah, but in that case, how is he there at the end?

                        The point is that they established they couldn't go back and kill Thanos to make the future change. So imagine it like this; at the start of the story, one of the heroes goes back in time to the 1950s and kills Thanos, then doesn't travel forward in time; they just stay there. Then they live for 70 years and by 2019, are an old person, and go to meet up with the characters at the moment they were sent back.

                        Do you see the problem? The movie states that wouldn't work.

                        So Cap could go back in time to be with Peggy Carter, that's fine, and if he wants to "retire" that could work, but he wouldn't be there at the end of the movie as an old man.

                        You could suggest that it's a predestination thing; so Cap was always fated to go back in time and do this. However, the movie shows that can't be the case either, because when Stark etc. go to New York, they change events that definitely didn't work out that way the first time.

                        EDIT: Seems we're not the only people to be asking this question:

                        Last edited by Asura; 28-04-2019, 08:14.

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                          #13
                          Think of it this way Rogers is living out his life in what is from the point of view of an observer in 2019 the past. But for Rogers in the 1950s it is his future. He continues to live his life in secrecy until he meets his old colleagues in 2019 knowing where those guys would be.

                          Similarly traveling back to kill Thanos in the past wouldn’t matter as he still exists in your past, which is the chronological future, so he would still have carried out his actions in your past. If Thanos hadn’t carried out the Snappening then the Avengrs wouldn’t have gone back to try to prevent it.

                          We need a David Tennant Timey Wimey .Gif here.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by CMcK View Post
                            Think of it this way Rogers is living out his life in what is from the point of view of an observer in 2019 the past. But for Rogers in the 1950s it is his future. He continues to live his life in secrecy until he meets his old colleagues in 2019 knowing where those guys would be.
                            Yeah, but that doesn't work. He met Peggy Carter as an old woman in one of the previous movies, and didn't it establish that he went to see her regularly at her retirement home? It was a scene which was cut from the Avengers which they put into another movie, Winter Soldier I think.

                            To go with that, we'd need to think that "old Steve" was wandering around those events, and while it's not impossible, I think it's a bit of a stretch.

                            Still, not impossible I guess.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              I saw it with a group of friends yesterday and although it certainly warrants its 3-hour runtime its probably as good of a send-off for some of (if not most of) the main cast from the original.

                              I'll probably continue to watch Marvel films at the cinema but its going to take another 5-10 years to build up to something of this magnitude again. They've at least shown that you can't fast-track these epic final chapters and climactic battles like DC tried to with Justice League. I also appreciated that although they displayed Captain Marvel's strength in Endgame they didn't make her as overpowered as Superman (as soon as he entered the final fight in JL all the tension had gone as the enemy wasn't a threat anymore).

                              I'll watch it again whilst its still showing in the cinema. There's a lot to process and I think we were given a great payoff and resolution as an audience and fans who love seeing these characters on the big screen.

                              Any chance we can travel to 5-7 years into the future to see the next epic Avengers film?

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