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    Originally posted by Dogg Thang View Post
    This is a basic case of scapegoating. You're blaming the EU for undermining your own democracy for being, according to you, happy when the UK did this all by themselves. You're blaming Remainers for the anxiety caused by Brexit rather than the people who actually achieved it and ran.

    And as for the "true leader" who can "create a bright future", that was my point earlier - if there was any kind of bright future with Brexit, any way to do this in a way that truly works for the country, someone somewhere across your 65 million people would have found it in two years. The absence this true leader should tell you everything you need to know. There is a very simple reason nobody has been able to put in place a successful Brexit plan.

    We could have had the EU desperate to offer us a deal, they 'need' our money (you seriously need to look at the financial state of the EU at the moment, Italy, Spain, Greece and the state of Target2) and if we had have played hard ball they would have come back with a deal.
    The hardcore remainers have done everything in their power to try and bring us to the point we are at now, which is to remain part of the EU in anything but name, this is about as bad a deal as we could have had.
    I would rather stay in and let the EU rule us for ever more than what we have now.

    What are you thoughts on Target2 and the debt trap so many EU countries are in?

    Comment


      Originally posted by gIzzE View Post

      What bits do 'you' think he got wrong?
      Lol at ‘you’ in inverted commas. Come on so-called Paulos, reveal your true self!

      Comment


        Trump must get his predictions via earphone from Mystic Meg:



        "Tomorrow they will vote to Leave... or Remain"

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          Originally posted by Dogg Thang View Post
          This is a basic case of scapegoating. You're blaming the EU for undermining your own democracy for being, according to you, happy when the UK did this all by themselves. You're blaming Remainers for the anxiety caused by Brexit rather than the people who actually achieved it and ran.
          It's quite funny how you can misconstrue my clear points. I just pointed out that the EU, along with many British Remainers, has no respect for democracy. The referendum result was to leave the EU, but Remainers and the EU have conspired to undermine this. Anyone who respects democracy should be against this, whether they voted to stay or leave. Is it too much to expect the EU and UK government to accept the referendum result with no ifs or buts? I certainly don't think it should be.

          Originally posted by Dogg Thang View Post
          There is a very simple reason nobody has been able to put in place a successful Brexit plan.
          The simple reason is clearly down to a lack of will within the government to deliver what the British people voted for. Cameron put a huge dark cloud over the matter by resigning. Then May, a Remainer, took over and has obviously dragged her heels in an attempt to complicate the situation and make it easier for a very light Brexit to be achieved.

          It's clear that the EU has conspired with Remainers like May to undermine the democratic referendum result. It's all about making Remainers feel justified - and breaking the will of the Leavers. I think both parties[the EU and UK government] have done a great job.of complicating the Brexit process and driving the British people to the point where many wish the referendum hadn't taken place. It's sad that so many people in Britain have now lost faith in British democracy, or see it as something to manipulate when a vote doesn't go their way.

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            Talk about the Referendum being democratic is incorrect to the point of it being actually hilarious, as is trying to blame the EU for something that our government have clearly self-inflicted.

            How in the hell is it remotely democratic when Referendums are only ever meant to be advisory and never ever legally binding? How is it remotely democratic when British people based abroad in EU nations were deliberately denied their right to vote?? And none of that is even beginning to cover the fact that Brexiteer politicians have told, and continue to tell, packs of lies about the ramifications of Brexit and that Vote Leave even bent rules regarding the funding of their Referendum campaign.

            I'm sorry, but nothing about any of this shambles is democratic and trying to pretend that any of it is is just laughable.

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              To be fair, on that last one Remain did exactly the same thing. The entire thing though is born really of one man's personal political ambitions, regardless of outcome the road to Brexit should forever be marked as Cameron's legacy.

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                Originally posted by Leon Retro View Post
                It's quite funny how you can misconstrue my clear points.
                Seemingly your clear points required an edit four hours after I replied. But you’re making the same points here and they’re just as scapegoating and wrong this time around. There is no successful Brexit plan. There is no mystical hero who can turn up and make it right. This is fantasy. It’s not the EU’s fault. It’s not the Remainer’s fault. It is squarely on those who pushed Brexit and those who voted for it. Some are trying to reduce the damage, some would like it not to damage at all. These aren’t the problem - they are an attempt to reduce the impact of the problem.

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                  Indeed - it's like filling your house with petrol, setting it alight and then blaming the fire brigade for not being able to put it out before it burns to the ground.

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                    Originally posted by endo View Post
                    Lol at ‘you’ in inverted commas. Come on so-called Paulos, reveal your true self!

                    I wanted to know what bits he thought Trump had got wrong in that interview?
                    Not what the MSM were running with, but what he thought based on the whole interview.

                    Listening to the snippets being played Trump sounded like an arrogant prick as usual, however, listening to the whole interview he was actually spot on in every detail and understands what the EU proposal from Chequers really meant, far better than most of the cabinet, most of Labour and most of the remainers.

                    I hate the term fake news, but in this instance, even though he said it with a smirk, he was right.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by Nu-Eclipse View Post
                      Talk about the Referendum being democratic is incorrect to the point of it being actually hilarious, as is trying to blame the EU for something that our government have clearly self-inflicted.

                      How in the hell is it remotely democratic when Referendums are only ever meant to be advisory and never ever legally binding? How is it remotely democratic when British people based abroad in EU nations were deliberately denied their right to vote?? And none of that is even beginning to cover the fact that Brexiteer politicians have told, and continue to tell, packs of lies about the ramifications of Brexit and that Vote Leave even bent rules regarding the funding of their Referendum campaign.

                      I'm sorry, but nothing about any of this shambles is democratic and trying to pretend that any of it is is just laughable.
                      Why do you think people who live or have property in Europe would have voted remain?

                      Every single one of the friends I know who live or have places in Europe voted leave, or wanted out, bar one.

                      I think too many people still don't understand that leaving the EU is not leaving Europe.

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by gIzzE View Post
                        I wanted to know what bits he thought Trump had got wrong in that interview?
                        Where did I say he did?

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                          Originally posted by gIzzE View Post
                          Why do you think people who live or have property in Europe would have voted remain?

                          Every single one of the friends I know who live or have places in Europe voted leave, or wanted out, bar one.

                          I think too many people still don't understand that leaving the EU is not leaving Europe.
                          Where did I say that Brits living abroad would vote Remain? I didn't say that at all so please don't twist my words Brexiteer-style.

                          But if you wish to play that game, how do you know that every Brit abroad definitely wants to leave the EU? You don't.

                          It is a fact that, despite this affecting them as much or possibly more than us here at home, Brits living abroad in EU states were denied their right to vote on this - that is all I have stated. Therefore this clearly wasn't democratic by any stretch.

                          Though funnily enough, a lot of the major Brexiteer politicians involved in the Vote Leave campaign are now scrambling to acquire residency in other EU countries. Gee, I can't imagine why they'd do something like that.
                          Last edited by Nu-Eclipse; 14-07-2018, 15:38.

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                            Originally posted by Paulos G View Post
                            Where did I say he did?
                            So you agree it was "fake news" or was it just the fact he used the cringeworthy term the reason you mentioned it?

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                              Originally posted by Nu-Eclipse View Post
                              Where did I say that Brits living abroad would vote Remain? I didn't say that at all so please don't twist my words Brexiteer-style.

                              But if you wish to play that game, how do you know that every Brit abroad definitely wants to leave the EU? You don't.

                              It is a fact that, despite this affecting them as much or possibly more than us here at home, Brits living abroad in EU states were denied their right to vote on this - that is all I have stated. Therefore this clearly wasn't democratic by any stretch.

                              Though funnily enough, a lot of the major Brexiteer politicians involved in the Vote Leave campaign are now scrambling to acquire residency in other EU countries. Gee, I can't imagine why they'd do something like that.


                              Brexiteer-style? OK.

                              Why mention it if you didn't think it would have changed the outcome? Just to do with the decision should be democratic?
                              Where was the democratic vote to get ever more tied up to an EU system that many believe only benefits the few?

                              We can go on and on about the decisions we should have made over the years, but the reality is, a vote was taken and we are now putting the UK into a worse position than either staying in or leaving.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by gIzzE View Post
                                Brexiteer-style? OK.

                                Why mention it if you didn't think it would have changed the outcome? Just to do with the decision should be democratic?
                                Where was the democratic vote to get ever more tied up to an EU system that many believe only benefits the few?

                                We can go on and on about the decisions we should have made over the years, but the reality is, a vote was taken and we are now putting the UK into a worse position than either staying in or leaving.
                                So I've got this straight: You genuinely think that it's okay that a significant amount of British people were deliberately denied the right to vote on a referendum which shouldn't even be legally binding in any case?? Wow...just, wow...

                                You're damn right about the UK currently being put into a bad position, but anybody living in any kind of actual reality knows full well that none of the fault for this lays at the door of the EU or the people who wish to remain.

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