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Europe IV: The Final Hour

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    XR's main issue is that it's solely about drawing attention to the issue, it's not organised to actually have real purpose which is why there's those vids out there of the key members including Thunberg, getting flumoxed in interviews because they want action but don't themselves know what action is really needed, that in turn leads to a vague campaign focused on attention. At first that seems fine but it quickly becomes manipulated rather than listened to, like Labours promise for the UK to be carbon neutral by 2030. It's a stupid claim that they can't meet but it's because they want to hijack XR's agenda for their own benefit and 2030 beats the Tories 2050 whilst being far enough out Corbyn won't be around to answer for failing to meet it. In the end that's what will be accomplished rather than real change, because their's no tip at the head of XR's spear.

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      Well until someone manages to do a better job at achieving the change needed (welcoming all manifestos), I’m all for them. They have the world talking. They have some of it listening. Not anywhere near enough but far, far more than there was without them. Nobody has done better yet.

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        I saw something complaining that "Greta proposes no solutions to the economic impact her ideas will have".

        But I'm thinking that the economic impact of doing nothing will be far worse longer term.

        It's always short term thinking. Just like politics.

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          That's the thing, it's always short term until the next distraction so they need to think of what next stage is needed to avoid this being a repeat of the 80's where it was a big thing but nothing much changed in the end.

          It's like the articles in the last week or so about how air pollution reduction in Europe has stalled, or about the 20 biggest corporations in the world responsible for 1/3 of the world's carbon emissions. Attention needs to go to the most damaging areas that constantly escape scrutiny and pressure, XR just needs to be careful that it doesn't make the mistake of losing public support until it begins to make a difference and historically that support is fast to be lost.

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            I'm sure XR is some sort of set up to make a joke out of the climate change movement. It's like the chuckle brothers are in charge of their stunts! from the botched fire engine stunt to them falling off trains their videos are always hilarious. Nothing says lets focus on climate change like an old guy failing to keep hold of a fire engine hose, or some idiot falling of the top of a train and getting a kicking.

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                Quick scan and one curious thing from today seems to be Sturgeon suggesting that Labour will oppose Johnson's deal but secretly give Labour rebels the nod of support to vote for it so that it passes. I mean, for Labour the reality is simple. Johnsons deal goes through = Tories win the next general election at the minimum

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                  And it will allow Johnson to have gotten through a hard brexit - this puts us outside of any custom union meaning frictionless trade is out of the window and the doors are open to lowering standards in the UK as we'll no longer be aligned to EU standards (lowering our standards to accomodate a US trade deal would make an EU FTA pretty much impossible).

                  It also means Scotland is given valid reasons for having another referendum, afterall, NI would be outside of England's regulations and aligned with the EU.

                  Without DUP support, tomorrow's vote will be very tight, but it's possible if Johnson can get a couple more MPs onboard, he might be able to squeeze this through, especially given Labour will not be whipping their MPs.
                  Last edited by MartyG; 18-10-2019, 10:05.

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                    Originally posted by MartyG View Post
                    It also means Scotland is given valid reasons for having another referendum, afterall, NI would be outside of England's regulations and aligned with the EU.
                    Saving the union will need imagination – and we’ve lost it
                    "As our common culture disintegrates amid Brexit and globalisation, the chances of holding the country together go down"

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                      Plot thickens on trying to enact Benn Act even if the deal is passed

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                        All eyes on the Letwin amendment today because for some reason I've got a real bad feeling...

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                          Letwin... let win? Are they putting begging into the titles of amendments now?

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                            Johnson loses a key vote for the 9th time as the Letwin amendment passes meaning regardless of his deal being voted for he has to request an A50 extension. This also means any vote in favour of the deal is purely intent and can be overturned later making the rest of the day redundant for him, effectively he's lost 31 October as a deadline. They're now in a tussle as Johnson continues to say he won't extend A50.

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                              Boris has sent a request for an A50 extension, blinking at the last moment from his threats. He is said not to have signed the letter whilst sending a second letter explaining why the request was being made and a third explaining why No.10 doesn't want one. There will now be an extension but the EU will see how events unfold over the coming days in the UK to decide how long for. The earliest we could now leave is 30 November 2019 but if Johnson's deal isn't cleared then the decision of how long - and it could be a long extension - rests entirely with the EU, Johnson law bound to accept anything they table.

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                                It might be frustrating but this is democracy in action. MPs have created laws to ensure the PM can't just do as he pleases.

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