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    #31
    Not sure why people say the 1 chip image is too sharp. I don't think it looks too sharp at all, it just looks much cleaner, vivid and more vibrant with better contrast overall. I've never felt any system looks too sharp on a BVM/PVM, I'd say my Neo Geo, snes and MD all looks equally nice...with the exception on my N64 which is blurry even with the RGB MOD lol

    Comment


      #32
      Originally posted by gamelife View Post
      I've never felt any system looks too sharp on a BVM/PVM,
      Aren't BVM/PVM screens supposed to be naturally sharper than consumer sets? A 1-Chip must look incredibly sharp on a BVM/PVM?

      I remember people talking about 1-Chip machines a few years ago, so I decided to buy one. I now have USA and Japanese 1-Chip machines. Both are mini machines with C-sync.

      What I really noticed straight away is the pixels look far sharper -- and some details look rougher as a result. So I went back to my standard SNES and could see the image is quite a bit softer, but the pixels(and therefore details) looked easier on the eye.

      Now, I'm all for RGB and clarity, but a 1-Chip machine does give an extremely sharp image. This can be seen as beautiful thing, or maybe some people won't like the severe sharpness. I personally prefer how a standard SNES looks.

      Originally posted by gamelife View Post
      with the exception on my N64 which is blurry even with the RGB MOD lol
      I have an N64 with a modern RGB amp, which gives a very nice image. But when people on here were saying how great the 'de-blur' N64 is, I decided to buy one. It makes the image look similar to what you get with a PlayStation and Saturn, so far clearer than a normal RGB N64. But you certainly notice more pixelation and a degree of roughness. It does look far more vibrant though. So which is better is also down to personal taste; I don't think everyone is going to prefer a de-blur machine.

      I also have the same attitude towards emulation. I prefer a nice sharp image with a bit of softness to the pixels, rather than pushing things to an extreme where all the pixels look razor sharp. I just don't like that look.

      I hate extreme image filters that soften the image -- and something very basic like 'bilinear' is truly terrible, but extreme sharpness just isn't my cup of tea. I think a little bit of softness to an image makes retro games look more attractive.
      Last edited by Leon Retro; 08-07-2019, 15:08.

      Comment


        #33
        I guess it just comes down to personal tastes. I don't really notice the sharpness/roughness some people see. It's the vibrant colours, cleaness and pop of the image that i notice due to the higher quality phosphors. Consumer sets look so washed out to me now even running rgb. The N64 is acceptable for me, the image is nice enough with my rgb mod. Depends on the games generally. Mario 64 looks pretty nice in fact

        Comment


          #34
          Originally posted by gamelife View Post
          I guess it just comes down to personal tastes. I don't really notice the sharpness/roughness some people see.
          Extreme sharpness definitely makes the edges of sprites(and graphics in general) look more severe. I think the assumption can be "more sharpness the merrier" but I don't think that really makes sense. It is definitely down to personal taste.

          It's sort of like saying a game such as AvP from Capcom definitely looks better on a studio monitor than the original arcade monitors of the era. I know there are people who don't feel that way.

          Originally posted by gamelife View Post
          Consumer sets look so washed out to me now even running rgb.
          I remember thinking that with a lot of consumer CRT sets from Hitachi, Toshiba etc.. But mid to high-end Trinitron sets from the 90s delivered a very clear and vibrant image using RGB. When I bought a 1998 Trinitron in mint condition last year, I once again got to see how beautiful the image is with 8 & 16-bit consoles. You have good clarity(not severe sharpness) a very nice black level, and beautifully vivid colours.

          Originally posted by gamelife View Post
          The N64 is acceptable for me, the image is nice enough with my rgb mod. Depends on the games generally. Mario 64 looks pretty nice in fact
          I wouldn't really recommend the 'de-blur' as a must-have. The sharper/clearer image wouldn't be seen as necessarily better to some people. It's also a case of personal preference. An N64 with a standard RGB amp gives a reasonably nice image, with the softer look maybe seen as a benefit to some people.
          Last edited by Leon Retro; 08-07-2019, 22:01.

          Comment


            #35
            Video output Pixel sharpness is very different to ‘artificial’ sharpness (the type you turn up on your tv that produces ‘haloing’ around the edges if turned up too high. The sharpness control is disabled on bvm/pvms fed RGB and I think it’s the same for consumer sets, as far as I can remember. I doubt very much that a 1 chip would produce severe sharpness on a consumer set; (The downside/limitations of a consumer set, such as low TVL/ dot pitch, would put a stop to that!)

            Bvms / pvms above 800TVL / high end pro crt monitors have a very fine dot pitch (as low as 0.22mm) on some models that produce an exceptionally sharp image through RGB (you need to see it to believe it). It’s not in any way artificial looking or ‘emulator - like’, just a truly mint image. Some even have full convergence controls to further perfect the image. This is where sharpness gets a new meaning!

            Of course drop down to 600 TVL and you can really notice the difference and you will really need sharp video output to compensate. Some people do like a softer image and it’s all down to personal preference

            Comment


              #36
              Originally posted by dvdx2 View Post
              This is where sharpness gets a new meaning!

              Of course drop down to 600 TVL and you can really notice the difference and you will really need sharp video output to compensate. Some people do like a softer image and it’s all down to personal preference
              Would it be like plugging a 16-bit console into something like an Iiyama Vision Master Pro CRT monitor? Is that that the sort of image you get with PVM/BVM monitor?

              I've upscaled 8 & 16-bit consoles using a Framemeister and OSSC -- and don't like how things look at 1080p. I think it ends up having nothing in common with how the games look on good consumer TVs or arcade monitors.

              When you make the image from 8 & 16-bit consoles look more hi-res and razor sharp, you are simply overdriving the image to satisfy a desire for games to have extreme clarity. I think that effect/look won't appeal to everyone. I've done the same sort of thing with my Pi and had to tone things down after thinking 8 & 16-bit games look worse with extreme clarity.

              If there were a 2000 line PVM/BVM -- would it make SNES games look nicer, or simply clearer? How much clarity is really needed to make the most of 16-bit games? How much can/should you do with the very limited resolution and colours of a SNES to show the games off authentically/nicely?

              After using emulation and upscalers, I went back to a 90s Trinitron CRT and was surprised by how beautiful it looks. I don't see the little bit of softness as a 'bad point' but more of a appreciable positive. It made me realise that trying to make retro games have a hi-res sheen and razor sharp pixels looks quite ugly.

              I know there's a quest with some people for taking retro games to an extreme when it comes to image clarity -- with some people talking about 4K upscaling etc... Probably upscaling SNES games to 8K will be a thing next decade. I just wonder what this obsession is all about??? I have embraced the opposite: I like 8 & 16-bit games to have a bit of softness to the image. Sprites and details look far more pleasant that way. To my eyes, the Goemon games look worse on a 1-Chip SNES; I don't like how the sprites and details look.

              And when I talk about "softness" I don't mean a blurry image. No, I appreciate clarity and a good degree of sharpness -- just not to a severe level. I like the edges of pixels to have a little bit of softness. That looks really nice and inviting to my eyes.

              Of course, my taste is the opposite to some. The idea that extreme clarity and razor sharp pixels is "better" has become a common opinion within retro gaming. But I have chatted to people who share my opinion on how retro games look best. Personal taste is very much a factor.
              Last edited by Leon Retro; 08-07-2019, 23:00.

              Comment


                #37
                I think we can assume there are people that believe in
                no upper limit to sharpness in pursuit of image enjoyment.
                Case closed.

                It's quite a strange debate in that Leon has always pursued the best
                sharpest, most vibrant, least noisy scart cables build to a much better
                standard than you can buy from supposed technical specialist today.
                Including his one custom built by Neil Brown, using seemingly forgotten
                techniques in boosting image quality, choc full of Rubycon capacitors across
                all lines, seemingly baffles any modern scart home builder.

                Assuming some people will use ordinary high quality RGB scart cables, and
                ordinary power supplies with 10% voltage fluctuation margin, causing image fluctuation
                under 100x magnification video over time,
                the image they might see may be similar to a standard SNES with a special
                RGB scart cable and special home made power <0.1% volages psu fluctuation.

                The best way to prove the case would be magnified videos. And oscilloscope results
                across the graphics channels.

                I don't understand how anybody is intending to win debates without
                any proof at all. It seems all very illogical if you asked me for my general oversight.

                It nearly seems like people come here to talk
                instead of get to the bottom of science.

                Thanks for mentioning me Leon, which I recommended you avoided. I hope you consider
                not being put in situations to explain or restate ideas you've already shared already.

                On my forums I've limited my posts to one post per thread, two posts per week, it
                gives people "something to look forward to", something to admire with the utmost respect.
                To which it seems to be an effective strategum. Maximum possible yields in all datagram
                analysis and the least accidental minefields of 'time wasting' reiterating the same points.
                So far only 1 person stated "what kind of sociopath narcissist does that" well the thing
                is there's no harm in being a sociopath narcissist, it's not like it's something bad to be.
                It is what it is, everybody is different. Variety is the spice of life.

                Games don't play themselves. And talking isn't much in the way of playing.
                And there's more games to play than you could ever
                have time to play. I hope you enjoy the games I sent you, they will get better, some
                games I sent you when I was very very drunk, the next day they didn't seem as good, sorry
                about those ones.

                No hard feelings. Nothing is a problem, unless you make it a problem. Life is actually very
                simple, it's over thinking / over worrying that often drums up problems from nothing.
                If you never worry about things, then you're sure to never have anything to worry about.
                It's that simple. Yes. I hope you get to grips with banter leading nowhere. For sure.
                Happiness can't happen for people that go out their way to deny themselves happiness with
                obviously flawed strategies they don't seem to realize.

                I get the feeling you already know the outcomes of many cases you state. Seemingly this is some
                wierd socializing for the sake of it. Your choice I guess.

                Please don't mention me again. Thank you.

                Comment


                  #38
                  It’s all preference Leon - no right or wrong. Image quality for me is a lot more to do than just clarity/sharpness; you need to factor In phosphor, quality convergence, screen size, TVL (crt), geometry, dot pitch, black level, grill/mask type etc etc

                  Most retro gamers from the 80s /90s wouldn’t even have the experience of RGB, so even to playing retro games on something like a consumer trinitron nowadays would be pretty unauthentic compared to the original experience. (It was probably RF/composite and if you where lucky, S-video)!
                  Last edited by dvdx2; 09-07-2019, 06:27.

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Originally posted by dvdx2 View Post
                    It’s all preference Leon - no right or wrong. Image quality for me is a lot more to do than just clarity/sharpness; you need to factor In phosphor quality convergence, screen size, TVL (crt), geometry, dot pitch, black level, grill/mask type etc etc

                    Most retro gamers from the 80s /90s wouldn’t even have the experience of RGB, so even to playing retro games on something like a consumer trinitron nowadays would be pretty unauthentic compared to the original experience. (It was probably RF/composite and if you where lucky, S-video)!
                    I'm not doubting that your best PVM/BVM displays really strong clarity and sharpness. I can imagine(from what I've seen on the net) the vibrancy and clarity to be impressive

                    I have chatted with people who say they like arcade monitors the most. Others say a good consumer CRT suits them best. Not everyone who has owned/used a PVM/BVM says it's a 'must-have' next to other alternatives.

                    I really did find the 1998 Trinitron that I bought last year really impressive after years without a CRT. I've been using upscalers for a while, which do a decent job, but going back to a decent CRT was a beautiful sight. There's something about the image that goes beyond clarity/sharpness -- it just looks warm and inviting. The slight softness to the image looks like a nice benefit. I'm not thinking "I wish I could boost the sharpness."

                    It made me go back to emulation and my Pi and change my mind about trying to get things as clear/sharp as possible. I realised that I prefer a little bit of softness(similar to a Trinitron CRT) around the pixels. I now like to have emulated games looking as close as possible to how they look on my Trinitron. I don't desire any more sharpness or extreme hi-res clarity.

                    Maybe some people will think I'm talking about wanting 'blurriness' or filters that soften the image, but I hate trying to blur pixels. That's another extreme away from severe sharpness/clarity. No, I like retro games to look vibrant and sharp with a bit of softness to the edges to make things easier on the eye. Razor sharp pixels and extreme clarity just aren't my cup of tea. But I respect that taste varies. I'm just stating my honest point of view of how I like 8 & 16-bit games to look.
                    Last edited by Leon Retro; 09-07-2019, 02:19.

                    Comment


                      #40
                      Originally posted by ascensionaquila View Post
                      there's no harm in being a sociopath narcissist, it's not like it's something bad to be.
                      Pretty sure it is.
                      3DS FC (updated 2015): 0447-8108-3129

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Back on topic, please, everyone.

                        Comment


                          #42
                          Originally posted by ascensionaquila View Post
                          I think we can assume there are people that believe in
                          no upper limit to sharpness in pursuit of image enjoyment.
                          Case closed.

                          It's quite a strange debate in that Leon has always pursued the best
                          sharpest, most vibrant, least noisy scart cables build to a much better
                          standard than you can buy from supposed technical specialist today.
                          Including his one custom built by Neil Brown, using seemingly forgotten
                          techniques in boosting image quality, choc full of Rubycon capacitors across
                          all lines, seemingly baffles any modern scart home builder.

                          Assuming some people will use ordinary high quality RGB scart cables, and
                          ordinary power supplies with 10% voltage fluctuation margin, causing image fluctuation
                          under 100x magnification video over time,
                          the image they might see may be similar to a standard SNES with a special
                          RGB scart cable and special home made power <0.1% volages psu fluctuation.

                          The best way to prove the case would be magnified videos. And oscilloscope results
                          across the graphics channels.

                          I don't understand how anybody is intending to win debates without
                          any proof at all. It seems all very illogical if you asked me for my general oversight.

                          It nearly seems like people come here to talk
                          instead of get to the bottom of science.

                          Thanks for mentioning me Leon, which I recommended you avoided. I hope you consider
                          not being put in situations to explain or restate ideas you've already shared already.

                          On my forums I've limited my posts to one post per thread, two posts per week, it
                          gives people "something to look forward to", something to admire with the utmost respect.
                          To which it seems to be an effective strategum. Maximum possible yields in all datagram
                          analysis and the least accidental minefields of 'time wasting' reiterating the same points.
                          So far only 1 person stated "what kind of sociopath narcissist does that" well the thing
                          is there's no harm in being a sociopath narcissist, it's not like it's something bad to be.
                          It is what it is, everybody is different. Variety is the spice of life.

                          Games don't play themselves. And talking isn't much in the way of playing.
                          And there's more games to play than you could ever
                          have time to play. I hope you enjoy the games I sent you, they will get better, some
                          games I sent you when I was very very drunk, the next day they didn't seem as good, sorry
                          about those ones.

                          No hard feelings. Nothing is a problem, unless you make it a problem. Life is actually very
                          simple, it's over thinking / over worrying that often drums up problems from nothing.
                          If you never worry about things, then you're sure to never have anything to worry about.
                          It's that simple. Yes. I hope you get to grips with banter leading nowhere. For sure.
                          Happiness can't happen for people that go out their way to deny themselves happiness with
                          obviously flawed strategies they don't seem to realize.

                          I get the feeling you already know the outcomes of many cases you state. Seemingly this is some
                          wierd socializing for the sake of it. Your choice I guess.

                          Please don't mention me again. Thank you.
                          Send this to 10 people on your hotmail list or you will have bad luck for the next week!

                          Comment


                            #43
                            Originally posted by ascensionaquila View Post
                            On my forums I've limited my posts to one post per thread, two posts per week, it
                            gives people "something to look forward to", something to admire with the utmost respect.
                            You wot, m8?!

                            Comment


                              #44
                              Originally posted by teddymeow View Post
                              You wot, m8?!
                              We'll find out next week. I am personally looking forward to it.

                              Respectfully,

                              Zaki.

                              Comment


                                #45
                                Originally posted by Escape-To-88 View Post
                                Thought the comparison videos were interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2OOxIZMNM8
                                Very interesting video, interesting to see the colour isn't correct on a 03 1Chip, but does look better after modding fact you have to mod it again is madness. What is really interesting and what the guy in the video doesn't mention, but I saw looking over the pictures is the 01 1Chip actually uses a slightly different aspect ratio to the 2Chip (distorting it just slightly), which they corrected in the 03 1Chip.
                                Last edited by S3M; 09-07-2019, 22:10.

                                Comment

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