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  1. #411
    https://twitter.com/Reuters

    It's being reported that the US is about to withdraw from the UN Human Rights Council.
    Next thing they'll be abandoning the values too won't th...oh.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...l_popns&wpmm=1

    On the positive side, key Republicans seem to have finally found something in these Child Concentration Camps that is finally a step too far for them and Trump is starting to erode some of his loyal base over the matter.

  2. #412
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...political-bias

    And it's official, the US is out of the UN Human Rights Council as they say it's a protector of human rights abusers. If I wiped away the tears from my eyes I'm not sure if it'd be from laughing or crying.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...mp-separations

    Meanwhile, it's emerged that the Child Concentration Camps extends to taking babies and toddlers from their families too.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...responsibility

    Meanwhile, Trump basically confirms he's fully behind the whole thing as she shirks off doing anything about it himself.


    Honestly, you have to hope that the very next time the Democrats get someone into office they make their first term about utterly laying waste to everything Trump has done in office in a way that demolishes in scale the attempts Trump himself has made to do the same to Obama. Over two years we've gone from 'I want to build a wall' to 'I've set up concentration and detention camps for babies'. The idea of what lies in years 3 and 4...

  3. #413
    Quote Originally Posted by Superman Falls View Post
    Honestly, you have to hope that the very next time the Democrats get someone into office they make their first term about utterly laying waste to everything Trump has done in office in a way that demolishes in scale the attempts Trump himself has made to do the same to Obama. Over two years we've gone from 'I want to build a wall' to 'I've set up concentration and detention camps for babies'. The idea of what lies in years 3 and 4...
    They need to be careful, though. That's what they'll want to do, and it's also probably the right thing to do...

    ... but a smart politician will need to accept that, for all that we might criticise, nearly half the country voted for it. A huge proportion of the country wanted a candidate who stood for all those things many of us find hard to accept, with a core base of people who felt "left behind" by the liberal progress of the last few decades. Additionally, how the US is a nation of divisions; between urban and provincial, federal and state, north and south, coastal and flyover...

    Someone who just runs a bulldozer through the things Trump has done will only make the problem worse. In the short term, things will improve, but half the country is just going to get pissed off again and vote another Trump in within a decade.

    I don't know the solution, but I know it starts by not just ignoring people. And that's not because I like it! I hate that you have to bring those people into the fold. I find it incredibly distasteful. Something like that has to be done, though.

  4. #414
    Well as you say, it's less than half. And I'd say the amount of those that agree with everything he has done is smaller still. That still leaves a lot of people in agreement with some pretty awful things but, rather than validating them, I think it's time those who don't agree with everything make a stand. I don't think that will just result in making the problem worse at all. If anything, trying to be accommodating and centrist just results in letting terrible things happen - when one side goes more and more extreme, that shifts the centre. At a certain point, you have to declare things unacceptable and stop them from happening and undo them or else you go down a very dark path. This is not the start of a dark path right now - the start was over a year ago and a lot of people are happily skipping down that path. History will judge harshly those who let that happen or facilitate it.

  5. #415
    Quote Originally Posted by Asura View Post
    They need to be careful, though. That's what they'll want to do, and it's also probably the right thing to do...

    ... but a smart politician will need to accept that, for all that we might criticise, nearly half the country voted for it.
    Only 25.7 percent of all eligible voters in the USA voted for Trump. Incidentally, 26.8 percent voted for Hillary Clinton.

    [Source]
    Last edited by MartyG; 20-06-2018 at 09:10 AM.

  6. #416
    Quote Originally Posted by Dogg Thang View Post
    Well as you say, it's less than half. And I'd say the amount of those that agree with everything he has done is smaller still. That still leaves a lot of people in agreement with some pretty awful things but, rather than validating them, I think it's time those who don't agree with everything make a stand. I don't think that will just result in making the problem worse at all. If anything, trying to be accommodating and centrist just results in letting terrible things happen - when one side goes more and more extreme, that shifts the centre. At a certain point, you have to declare things unacceptable and stop them from happening and undo them or else you go down a very dark path. This is not the start of a dark path right now - the start was over a year ago and a lot of people are happily skipping down that path. History will judge harshly those who let that happen or facilitate it.
    To clarify, I'm not saying we need an era of centrism. I don't think that solves anything.

    If partisan politics stokes the fire and fans the flames, centrism just makes sure that the fire keeps burning at the same level for another 10 years, ready to flare up again when one side grows tired of the status quo. It never goes out.

    However, I feel the country does need some way of bridging that divide. The problem now is that politics has boiled down to a handful of wedge issues that have been pushed to the abolute edge; abortion is happening or not, gay people are getting married or not... There is also the internet, and how that affects things, allowing smaller groups who shout very loud to seem like a bigger part of politics than they actually are.

    you have to declare things unacceptable and stop them from happening
    This is the crux of the issue, I guess, but who declares this? Becuase the government in a democratic society is meant to act out the will of the people, not rule over them like a monarch. They're an extension of the population's will. If a quarter of the population want reprehensible, backwards things, what do you do?

    As I always, always, always say, the answer is education. The answer is always education. Society only improves over the long-term if the population is educated, and not just in an acamedic sense - people need to be open to travel, to learn, to experience other perspectives and points of view.

  7. #417
    It's so moronic that they don't use majority's for deciding the outcome. I forgot, we might not need to worry as much about Year 4 as he'll be back into full Campaign Mode

  8. #418
    I'd agree that education is the key to empowering people but you have to educate the young before they're indoctrinated so that critical thinking is part of their make up from the off.

    Go and take a look at TheDonald on Reddit if you think there's any hope of education changing their views.
    Last edited by MartyG; 20-06-2018 at 10:12 AM. Reason: added link

  9. #419
    Quote Originally Posted by Asura View Post
    However, I feel the country does need some way of bridging that divide.
    The problem here for me is that what divide was there previously was taken advantage of, leveraged, fuelled, poked and basically became a core part of one side's campaign. It's Brexit again. Find an enemy, find the differences and people to blame and make it an us versus them thing. When that divide actually feeds into one side in such a clear way, I don't feel like the way to bridge that divide is to give it any credence or validation. Quite the opposite. The way to stop Nazis, for example, isn't to bring them to the table and find a more acceptable solution on how to dispose of the Jews. There are many things going on here that history has effectively given a lifetime ban to and this is as it should be.

    I agree with you that education is key. It's crucial. As for the question of what you do if a quarter of the population wants reprehensible, backwards things? They're only a quarter of the population. You shove them back into their cave where they can wallow in their own hate until they die. The problem right now is that those people have been given a platform, first as a source of amusement like watching a car crash and that then normalised them. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. But not every opinion is entitled to a platform and certainly should not be free from consequence.

  10. #420
    Quote Originally Posted by Dogg Thang View Post
    I agree with you that education is key. It's crucial. As for the question of what you do if a quarter of the population wants reprehensible, backwards things? They're only a quarter of the population. You shove them back into their cave
    Can you do that though?

    On a ship crewed by 4 people, where three of them are reasonable and one is unreasonable, you can't just keep on sailing and ignore the one unreasonable person. You can't just put them in the brig, tie them up on the mast or push them overboard. Sooner or later they'll probably try to sink the ship just out of spite. Isn't that essentially what got Trump into power?

    Right now, that guy has taken the helm and turned the ship in the opposite direction, while the three reasonable people are waiting for a chance to get back to the helm and get back to what they would consider as "on course" - but if they just do that, it'll return things to how they were. They need to be better than how they were.

    I'm not saying you need to accept the views of these people (your nazi example demonstrates that's not a tenable approach); my point is that you can't just ignore them and turn the ship around, expecting things to turn out okay. Dealing with them might be legislating against their groups, for example, but that's not easy in a "free society" like the US. You need to change their views or simply meet them head-on, but you can't ignore them.

    I don't know the solution other than to try and use education to reduce the number of people in that group for the next generation.

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