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Is Western Civilisation in Decline?

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    #61
    Originally posted by Zen Monkey View Post
    Do I think Western civilisation is a good thing? Yes and no. It's done good and bad. It's helped some whilst slaughtering others. I don't yearn for for an abandonment of civilisation. I want a better one. A smarter one. I don't want a world without electrical goods or entertainment but I want them produced in smarter ways. Why can't we build stuff like televisions and stereos and mobile phones modularly so that they can be repaired when they break, so that as technology advances we don't have to throw out the old, we can just replace certain modules (like the screen module, or socket module, or chipset module, and bring it up to date? Why is planned obsolescence built into the very design of our goods? Why is that when I spend a £1000 on a TV (not to mention the cost to the planet in extracting the resources to make it) and it develops a fault three years down the line, I'm told "It can't be repaired, buy a new TV". It's madness.

    Everywhere is just as bad as everywhere else.

    Take Tibet, so enlightened people say, so advanced mentality the Buddhists.

    Year, of course they are, they do f-all every day, don’t work, don’t generate anything, they just leach of everyone else so they can “meditate”. 95% of the county lives in abject poverty and are basically slaves to feed the monks, brilliant!

    Even the places you think are enlightened or appear to be “good”, have the same dark side of human greed behind it.

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      #62
      Originally posted by Dogg Thang View Post
      Kindness is a big one. I'm with you on that one.
      I'd argue it's the appropriate response to just about every situation but, again, easy to say, a little harder to do.

      Originally posted by fishbowlhead View Post
      Everywhere is just as bad as everywhere else.

      Take Tibet, so enlightened people say, so advanced mentality the Buddhists.

      Year, of course they are, they do f-all every day, don’t work, don’t generate anything, they just leach of everyone else so they can “meditate”. 95% of the county lives in abject poverty and are basically slaves to feed the monks, brilliant!

      Even the places you think are enlightened or appear to be “good”, have the same dark side of human greed behind it.
      Alright, fella, geez, where'd that come?

      Having travelled in India and Tibet, I know from personal experience that nobody is a slave to Buddhist monks. They are fed out of charity. Whether or not it's right that poor people should even be asked to provide charity is for everyone to decide for themselves, but individual monks and entire monastries are involved in local community and social programs (be it digging wells or building bridges or paving pathways or handing out seasonal crops they grow or providing care in sanctuaries) and so it's not a one-way taking. It's an exchange.

      As to the dark side of humanity, be it violence or greed or selfishness, in it's all of us, in you and me and every one else be they Buddhist, Christian, Hindu, atheist, or agnostic or whatever. Religious teachings can (emphasis on can) serve as a way of facing and tackling that dark side but nobody suggests that Buddhism or any other religion is the only way. I've met secular people with more forgiveness in them than entire churches.

      If you really want to criticise Buddhism then, rather than get upset because they sit around meditating (which I think is a beautiful thing. Do you hate cats for sitting around all day? Do you hate the universe for being lazy because, believe it or not, the universe is always and I do mean ALWAYS trying to reach a state of zero energy consumption. Nature is inherently lazy, every volcano and earthquake and storm and supernova is the universe trying to conserve energy. It's why entropy is a universal phenomena), but I'm getting off track, if you really want to criticise Buddhist then look to Sri Lanka and the violence Buddhist fundamentalists are committing against Muslims because that really is indefensible.
      Last edited by Zen Monkey; 03-05-2019, 11:34.

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        #63
        Cats are a waste of space as well.

        Edit. Pretty easy to try an Reach a state of zero energy when you don’t have to produce food for yourself or people around you, just walk to the temple steps and it magically appears for you.

        Even Christianity hasn’t been able to pull of free food and no work 😏
        Last edited by fishbowlhead; 03-05-2019, 13:24.

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          #64
          ...
          Last edited by Zen Monkey; 03-05-2019, 14:04.

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            #65
            In response to your edit:

            Most monasteries have gardens where vegetables are grown, the surplus of which is divided among the poorest in local communities. Self-sufficiency, believe it or not, is a major theme in Buddhism and, begging, far from being a means of riding on the backs of others, is a spiritual exercise in surrendering yourself to the goodness in others. It is an act of humility, a practice with a view of weakening the ego's grip on life by surrendering notions of pride and arrogance. It's not an easy thing to beg for food, it requires the death of many ideas you have about yourself and the world.

            Remember that not everything is as it seems (or to quote a Zen saying "Nothing is as it seems. Nor is it otherwise", haha. gotta love the paradoxes in Zen ) and it's always a good idea to travel the road leading to conclusions (ie to find out what's really going on) before making sweeping statements.
            Last edited by Zen Monkey; 03-05-2019, 14:11.

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              #66
              Begging as a choice, an exercise, assumes there are other people to give you stuff. Other people who can't do what you do, who can't live as purely as you do because they're working for the stuff they use to feed themselves and the people begging. That's a tricky one to understand if it's supposed to be some kind of life exercise. Because if we all did it, we'd have nobody to beg from.

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                #67
                You're turning it into something abstract and theoretical. We live in a world where people can afford to give so it's quite a simple choice, either people give to a beggar or they don't.

                Peter Own Jones, an Anglican priest, author and television presenter chose to beg for food, shelter and transportation during a three day journey he made across Britain in the documentary 'How To Live a Simple Life". He too harboured deep reservations, partly for theoretical reasons, mostly for egotistical reasons, but was convinced to try begging by a well known Indian Buddhist who had travelled the planet on foot begging for food. At the end of the show Peter Owen Jones said that it was one of the hardest things he's ever done because it leaves you utterly defenseless and at the complete mercy of others, but he also admitted that it was extremely valuable exercise with great merit and humanistic value.

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                  #68
                  I guess what I'd wonder is - how does it benefit anyone other than the person doing the begging?

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                    #69
                    Are you serious?

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                      #70
                      Of course. If we're talking about a civilisation in decline, and we are, I'm struggling to see the benefit of becoming beggars. Help me out here.

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                        #71
                        Originally posted by Zen Monkey View Post
                        Most monasteries have gardens where vegetables are grown, the surplus of which is divided among the poorest in local communities. Self-sufficiency, believe it or not, is a major theme in Buddhism and, begging, far from being a means of riding on the backs of others, is a spiritual exercise in surrendering yourself to the goodness in others. It is an act of humility, a practice with a view of weakening the ego's grip on life by surrendering notions of pride and arrogance. It's not an easy thing to beg for food, it requires the death of many ideas you have about yourself and the world.
                        And once again, it leads to the idea of a Church or belief using charity as a veil to defend itself against criticism.

                        As I've said, charity by itself is wonderful and kind, but as soon as a group of people under 1 umbrella of a religious faith begin their own charity then I fully question their motives.

                        You may disagree with me (I mean really Wools, peeps handing vegetables out to the poor is bad?!) and I totally understand why you would think that but I despise any religion that uses goodwill or underhanded techniques to attempt to recruit followers or people in desperate times to conscript to their version of a god.

                        Comment


                          #72
                          Originally posted by Dogg Thang View Post
                          Of course. If we're talking about a civilisation in decline, and we are, I'm struggling to see the benefit of becoming beggars. Help me out here.
                          I'm not suggesting we all become beggars! Bloody hell, it's hard to have a mature discussion on here. It really is. Why's everything always reduced to binary? To black and white? To all or nothing? Fishbowlhead said Buddhist monks are selfish and lazy because they beg, I was pointing out that it is a spiritual exercise. That's it. I can admire or understand or appreciate something without believing it's something we should all do.

                          I think you know the benefit a person has in giving to someone whose begging. I imagine you have experience to draw upon. I bet at some point you've given something to someone in greater need than you. Why did you do it?

                          Comment


                            #73
                            Originally posted by Zen Monkey View Post
                            Fishbowlhead said Buddhist monks are selfish and lazy because they beg, I was pointing out that it is a spiritual exercise.
                            I don't feel these two things are mutually exclusive. That's what I was trying to figure out - does this spiritual exercise benefit anyone other than those conducting it, even if we don't all become beggars? And the answer suggests that you are both right.

                            Comment


                              #74
                              Originally posted by Wools View Post
                              And once again, it leads to the idea of a Church or belief using charity as a veil to defend itself against criticism.

                              As I've said, charity by itself is wonderful and kind, but as soon as a group of people under 1 umbrella of a religious faith begin their own charity then I fully question their motives.

                              You may disagree with me (I mean really Wools, peeps handing vegetables out to the poor is bad?!) and I totally understand why you would think that but I despise any religion that uses goodwill or underhanded techniques to attempt to recruit followers or people in desperate times to conscript to their version of a god.
                              Charity is a wonderful thing. Full stop. No matter who is doing it. If you can get there on your own. Wonderful. If you require religion to poke you into charity. Wonderful. If you need philosophy to stir you into charity. Wonderful. I'm for anything and everything that gets people being a little nicer to one another.

                              I did not suggest that handing out vegetables to the poor is bad, I said that is something religious monasteries do with the vegetables that they grow because fishbowlhead suggested monks do nothing in return.

                              Comment


                                #75
                                Originally posted by Zen Monkey View Post
                                Charity is a wonderful thing. Full stop. No matter who is doing it. If you can get there on your own. Wonderful. If you require religion to poke you into charity. Wonderful. If you need philosophy to stir you into charity. Wonderful. I'm for anything and everything that gets people being a little nicer to one another.

                                I did not suggest that handing out vegetables to the poor is bad, I said that is something religious monasteries do with the vegetables that they grow because fishbowlhead suggested monks do nothing in return.
                                I disagree, but I feel we'll always disagree on this. For example, The Royal British Legion. There's no question since it's inception, it's glorified the army and continues to support the very poorest of our UK children become war fighters in other countries. Some say it's a charity beyond compare, I argue it glorifies the UK army and shouts down any critics of them.

                                I know it's an extreme view point, but I feel religion, climate change and corruption in politics are the most disgusting and vile issues facing humanity. So attempting to dress up any spiritual element, whether it's spiritual or religious, as something to aspire to, I feel sick to my core.

                                Charity, as in giving to the poor and needy is brilliant, agreed. But never, ever, full stop.

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