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Why microtransactions, IAPs and LootBoxes are here to stay thread

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    Originally posted by Cassius_Smoke View Post
    If you look at Belgiums law it says:

    Be a game.
    Involve a stake of any kind.
    Result in a loss or a gain.
    Involve at least a minimal degree of chance in the outcome.
    But then is ranked play in Street Fighter IV gambling?

    It's a game, you put up a stake (the points used for ranking), you can lose or gain from the result and chance is involved in some aspects of the game.

    This is why the legislation can't make sweeping generalisations.

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      Another scathing attack on microtransations to be found here:

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        Originally posted by Asura View Post
        But then is ranked play in Street Fighter IV gambling?

        It's a game, you put up a stake (the points used for ranking), you can lose or gain from the result and chance is involved in some aspects of the game.

        This is why the legislation can't make sweeping generalisations.
        No, because it is not a game of chance. Whilst there maybe some random factors involved (ping, selected opponent), it's a game of skill for the most part. For it to be a a game of chance, the button presses for any hit would have to have an RNG to determine whether the hit connects to the other player, removing the player's skill to time an attack or defence.

        Lootboxes are quite clearly a game of chance with no skill element whatsoever.
        Last edited by MartyG; 12-09-2018, 14:24.

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          Originally posted by MartyG View Post
          No, because it is not a game of chance. Whilst there maybe some random factors involved (ping, selected opponent), it's a game of skill for the most part. For it to be a a game of chance, the button presses for any hit would have to have an RNG to determine whether the hit connects to the other player, removing the player's skill to time an attack or defence.

          Lootboxes are quite clearly a game of chance with no skill element whatsoever.
          Yup. Include paying to play those loot boxes with real cash and not free i game currency and it’s 100% gambling.

          All aimed at robbing children.

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            NBA 2K19's Virtual Currency screen.



            Hey, you get 200,000 coins for free if you spend $99.99 so stop complaining. Yeah, not sure how they can claim they are actually "free" though, given 2K isn't being consistent with the cost of the coins you pay for. It's just another con-trick to make it look like you're getting more for your money. Given 2K are controlling the economy, it's disingenuous at best anyway.

            Let's do some mathematics.

            Cost with the "free coins"

            5,000 $1.99 = 0.0398c per coin
            15,000 $4.99 = 0.0332666666666667c per coin
            35,000 $9.99 = 0.0285428571428571c per coin
            75,000 $19.99 = 0.0266533333333333c per coin
            200,000 $49.99 = 0.024995c per coin
            450,000 $99.99 = 0.022222c per coin

            Eliminating the "free coins" aspect

            5,000 $1.99 = 0.0398c per coin
            12,500 $4.99 = 0.03992c per coin
            25,000 $9.99 = 0.03996c per coin
            50,000 $19.99 = 0.03998c per coin
            125,000 $49.99 = 0.039992c per coin
            250,000 $99.99 = 0.039996c per coin

            And now if we go off the base price per coin where there are no "free coins" and extrapolate from there, the costs of the packs should be ...

            5,000 $1.99
            12,500 $4.975 (1.5c)
            25,000 $9.95 (4c)
            50,000 $19.90 (9c)
            125,000 $49.75 (24c)
            250,000 $99.50 (49c)

            So 2K are charging you more per coin the more coins you buy if you remove the "free" coins.

            Not sure why I spent so much time on that tbh.
            Last edited by MartyG; 12-09-2018, 15:14.

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              Originally posted by MartyG View Post
              No, because it is not a game of chance. Whilst there maybe some random factors involved (ping, selected opponent), it's a game of skill for the most part. For it to be a a game of chance, the button presses for any hit would have to have an RNG to determine whether the hit connects to the other player, removing the player's skill to time an attack or defence.

              Lootboxes are quite clearly a game of chance with no skill element whatsoever.
              OK, I picked a poor example, but there are games which do this. League of Legends has combat like an RPG. Hell, Fortnite has a chance for weapons to inflict critical hits. Loads of games have elements of chance where the player can win or lose a stake based upon a random incident (given the stake doesn't have to be real currency).

              Your "for the most part" bit is the issue here. Who decides the skill ratio for what is gambling and what isn't?

              Again, I'm not defending the practice of loot-boxes. I'm just saying that if this gets scrutinised by lawmakers, I'm concerned they're going to absolutely lurch and overstep their bounds. This is an example of "give them in yard of rope", and it's going to be EA's fault.

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                Originally posted by Asura View Post
                Your "for the most part" bit is the issue here. Who decides the skill ratio for what is gambling and what isn't?
                In matters of law, the courts.

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                  Originally posted by MartyG View Post
                  In matters of law, the courts.
                  I have zero faith in the courts to understand the workings of videogames. We're talking about people of the same category who call their computer's base unit "the hard drive".

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                    The only way I can think of curtailing it a little is for a change of law to require any item bought using real life money to be banned alongside the purchase of in game forms of currency via real money.

                    Basically a change that means Lootboxes can remain but they are an ingame action reward, you can't purchase them in any way. A return to all currency based purchases being standard described DLC with no randomised content. You can't buy stuff like in game Koins etc that are then used to unlock in game content. A return to the old DLC method in effect.

                    I wouldn't cry if the likes of 2K saw their profits tumble due to such a change, might make them pull a finger out and make more games.

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                      Originally posted by Superman Falls View Post
                      The only way I can think of curtailing it a little is for a change of law to require any item bought using real life money to be banned alongside the purchase of in game forms of currency via real money.

                      ...

                      I wouldn't cry if the likes of 2K saw their profits tumble due to such a change, might make them pull a finger out and make more games.
                      The simplest way would probably be to ban the purchase of anything consumable. So currency would be out, lootboxes would be out. You can't exchange real-world currency for anything usable which can be "used up".

                      That being said, this would destroy mobile gaming in its current form, and I think it's unlikely to happen. It probably has a ton of other knock-on effects I'm not thinking about. It's also perhaps a bit unfair as a sweeping gesture; I mean when I go to the cinema, I buy a ticket, watch the movie and go home - I don't get to keep a DVD of the movie afterwards.

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                        The issue Belgium has is with random chance games purchased for cash. There are specific games Belgium had an issue with, FIFA being one of them.

                        EA doesn't want to have to go through gambling regulation because then it can't fleece its customers as easily. It's something that EA could have avoided entirely by not having paid lootboxes.

                        If EA hadn't of over moneyed Battlefront II with its pay-to-win crap, then we probably wouldn't be at the stage of governments taking an interest.
                        Last edited by MartyG; 13-09-2018, 10:12.

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                          Originally posted by MartyG View Post
                          If EA hadn't of over moneyed Battlefront II with its pay-to-win crap, then we probably wouldn't be at the stage of governments taking an interest.
                          If it hadn't been Battlefront 2 it would have been something else. Obviously the Disney brand and license accelerated that event but MTX systems were (and are) getting more and more egregious. So I think it was only a matter of time before policy and law makers caught up with them.

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                            Yes I think you're right, I should probably have put "we probably wouldn't be at the stage of governments taking an interest, yet".

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                              15 European gambling regulators unite to tackle loot box threat - Along with Washington State. [Euro Gamer Link]

                              Less than a week after Belgium began a criminal investigation into FIFA's loot boxes, 15 gambling regulators from Europe and one from the US have together announced they will "address the risks created by the blurring of lines between gaming and gambling".
                              The key focus for the parties involved appears to be "tackling unlicensed third-party websites offering illegal gambling linked to popular video games". If you're wondering what this is, think back to skin betting site CS:GO Lounge, which allowed users to bet real money on a pot of their CS:GO items until Valve cracked down on the site in 2016.
                              But the investigation won't stop there. The regulators stated games providers must "ensure that features within games, such as loot boxes, do not constitute gambling under national laws". This indicates more countries will now examine whether loot boxes can be classed as gambling.
                              "Unlicensed websites offering skins betting can pop up at any time and children could be gambling with money intended for computer game products," McArthur stated. "We encourage video games companies to work with their gambling regulators and take action now to address those concerns to make sure that consumers, and particularly children, are protected."
                              Great news.
                              Last edited by Digfox; 17-09-2018, 12:55.

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                                Would this ultimately lead to tweaking lootboxes in stuff like Overwatch or the removal of them?

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