Europe III: April F-EU-Ls

[Asura]

Who would trust a deal done with Trump regardless? Who wants to lower our food standards so we can have imports such US chlorinated chicken and growth hormone fed beef?

Yeah; I'm not happy with May saying all this stuff about removing obstacles to trade. What she sees as "obstacles" in some cases I see as "standards", and I don't want those to slip.

It seems abundantly clear, as it has for a long time, that the EU's sole position is that the UK has to either fold on everything and effectively become a bit of a slave state to EU law or go all out for Hard Brexit. The UK government is just continuing a two year habit of repeatedly approaching them with variations of the same plan that the EU ruled out on Day One.

I think the biggest problem remains to be what happens with Northern Ireland, and as the Cons are "friends" with the DUP, this affects their outlook. I don't think people thought that through at all; it should've been made clear during the referendum that if Brexit occurred, there was going to be a hard border with immigration checkpoints, because obviously there will be. The EU gets to make that decision, not us.

I will be shocked if we don't see a hard border there within the next 2-3 years.

People didn't vote for some kind of Brexit. No, they simply voted for the UK government to completely divorce itself from the EU...Leavers didn't vote for a light, moderate, or heavy Brexit. No, they just want to be fully divorced from the EU.

This, really. I think it's going to be a disaster and always did, but the people have spoken and they should be respected. We should've just planned to leave to the fullest extent possible and then negotiated afterwards from a clean slate as-and-when we missed things.

It's so depressing; I've given up on the idea of anything being salvaged from the whole affair.

[Neon Ignition]

The thing is, Brexit in its current state needs to be looked at in two separate ways:

1 - That We're Worse Off For It
This one is key as it's an often used mantra for Remainers to clarify their argument and position to Leavers. It's always failed and will continue to do so though as Leave voters by and large knew this and never cared. Instead it was always seen as a worthwhile price to pay for independence from the EU. Often the economy is cited as a key victim but in reality, for the majority of Leave voters, that translates as their bog roll is 8p dearer and their Toblerone has shrunk. The Tories have done just as much damage on their own in 'pocket' terms so joe public shrugs this point off.

2 - That There May Not Be a Good Deal
Immensely over focused element because their is no deal and it also underplays the importance of other market deals that still haven't received any real attention and need to be priorities. What they need is a practical deal, select your central pillars you won't move from then agree what works within that framework. The Tories clearly have no pillars they'll cling to and have crumbled at every turn. Even if they agree a deal there'll barely be a government to enact it at this rate. The Vote on a Deal has been a focus for so long and its utterly meaningless in the end. We either vote to agree to whatever rubbish the EU lays out for us or we walk away with No Deal. Instead it's a constant series of rambles of wish making dream scenarios with no grounding in reality.

Unless I'm missing something it would have been better to go for No Deal in the first place, skip all this nonsense and switch to WTO. Trade deals with other nations could then have started talks and the UK would then have given businesses 100% clear information about the reality of their situation from Day 1. A trade deal could then be properly worked out with the EU over the correct timeframe instead of rushing to do it in less than a third of the usual time as these things aren't set in stone for the rest of time. We were always going to take a hit so at this point it feels like we should have just ripped the bandaid off from the start in the aim of long term gains.

[Leon Retro]

If “positive plans” were possible,

Cameron wasn't happy with the result, so he quit. Theresa May wasn't happy with the result, so she's dragged things out in an attempt to create total apathy amongst both Leavers and Remainers, to the point where people just want to forget about the whole thing and never hear the word "Brexit" ever again.

So positive plans were never going to be drawn up with Theresa May in charge. She has surrounded herself with "yes" people who are fully fine with not honouring what Leavers voted for.

And I no longer buy that it’s what people voted for when pretty much everything they were told has been shown to have been false and the people who sold them those false ideas all ran for the hills.

Politicians always lie and cheat during general elections, so promises are often left unfulfilled once they get in power. But people still accept general election results without demanding another election simply because facts and figures were manipulated during the process.

I firmly believe that a lot of people in the Leave camp simply want the UK to be a sovereign nation again. All the talk about extra money for the NHS etc.. wasn't the prime motivation in voting to leave for lots of people.

It's just a sad fact that politicians who were firmly in the Remain camp have played up to Remainers and sent out the message that it's perfectly fine to object to the result of the referendum. It should have been a case of accepting the result and getting on with guiding the UK to a future without membership to the EU. No ifs or buts - just acceptance of the result without any underhand tactics to undermine the will of the people who voted to leave.

It's so depressing; I've given up on the idea of anything being salvaged from the whole affair.

What Leavers voted for won't be honoured. If we had a Labour government next week, Corbyn would continue pandering to the EU. We would still end up with a very light Brexit that undermines the will of all the people who voted to leave the EU.

[Dogg Thang]

No Leaver has managed to propose a successful Brexit either. It is fundamentally impossible. It’s like looking for a way to successfully punch yourself in the nuts and then blaming the people who don’t want it for trying to at least soften the blow.

[Asura]

What Leavers voted for won't be honoured. If we had a Labour government next week, Corbyn would continue pandering to the EU. We would still end up with a very light Brexit that undermines the will of all the people who voted to leave the EU.

Yeah; I personally feel a fair bit of the blame should be assigned to Cameron's government before all this really started.

The yes/no vote shouldn't have just been an ideological choice. It should've been a choice between two outlined outcomes, explaining how each would leave the country once the process was complete.

Due to a lack of vision, we had a vote where, I would argue, it was based on two opposing viewpoints that did not have parity.

The remainers tended to cite economic and political problems. Of course some were talking about ideological things like human rights and immigration too.

The leavers, in my experience, were driven by an ideological desire for independence, which is a fair viewpoint, even if it's one I don't share. There were certainly some, even here on this forum, who had specific legal and economic issues with the EU.

Then of course, neither of these groups were voting on a specific outcome. Both groups were enormously splintered around the wedge issue. For instance, there were remainers like myself who were driven primarily by the ideology of unity, whereas there were others who saw this as a chance to shake up the EU and improve its structure. Conversely on the leave side, there was everything from the people with reasoned issues with the concept of union (the larger, but quieter group) right down to the shouty people who thought a leave vote would see their Polish neighbours get kicked out the country in a week or two.

The whole thing was a complete and utter shambles.

[Neon Ignition]

It has no end either, a soft form of Brexit will merely breed the same mounting public dissent over the coming years that will lead a future government to feel the need to show greater independence from the EU and before you know it we slow slip into Hard Brexit without the proper planning for it.

"Leave means Leave" after all. Soft Brexit is a bit like if Scotland had voted independence but been allowed to cherry pick the bits to keep, we laughed at them about those notions so they shouldn't apply to us either when we're similarly seeking independence.

[Leon Retro]

No Leaver has managed to propose a successful Brexit either. It is fundamentally impossible. It’s like looking for a way to successfully punch yourself in the nuts and then blaming the people who don’t want it for trying to at least soften the blow.

If the EU respected democracy, it would have stood by the British people's vote to sever ties. The EU could have easily have stood up for democracy by urging the UK to respect the democratic vote to leave the EU. Instead, the EU has decided to make things difficult, which has played into the hands of politicians who were in the Remain camp.

It's obvious that the EU has conspired with Remainers like May to make something as simple as no longer being a member of the EU a long, arduous, and most probably futile process. I think even the most devout Remainer can see how corrupt the process has been, but it seems that many don't want to admit that and stand up for democracy. The air of "to hell with democracy" from angry Remainers is the worse thing about this disgusting situation. British democracy has been flushed down the toilet. Who can salvage the situation and give people faith in democracy again? It certainly won't be Corbyn.

The whole thing was a complete and utter shambles.

I agree with most of your points. People(mostly Remainers) have complicated the situation and done everything they can to muddy the waters. It really was a simple vote: remain part of the EU, or leave the EU. The verdict was to leave, so that aspect of the future for Britain was simple. Guiding Britain to a better future as a sovereign nation away from EU membership is another kettle of fish, but one that people in power should have embraced with enthusiasm and determination. It's such a shame that Cameron and May have decided to put the interests of the EU above the will of the British people.

[Dogg Thang]

If the EU respected democracy, it would have stood by the British people's vote to sever ties. The EU could have easily have stood up for democracy by urging the UK to respect the democratic vote to leave the EU. Instead, the EU has decided to make things difficult, which has played into the hands of politicians who were in the Remain camp.

Ummm... it's the EU's fault because they didn't urge the UK to leave? You can somehow get to this point and come away thinking this is all the EU's fault because they didn't TELL the UK what to do? The very thing Brexiteers said they were getting away from? If you believe that the EU needs to tell the UK what to do, stay in the EU and advocate handing more control over to them. But that would seem somewhat ridiculous.

You don't get to leave something as large as the EU without implications, without disruption. If you expected that, that's not the EU's fault - that's on you and whoever spun you that story.

[Nu-Eclipse]

If the EU respected democracy, it would have stood by the British people's vote to sever ties. The EU could have easily have stood up for democracy by urging the UK to respect the democratic vote to leave the EU. Instead, the EU has decided to make things difficult, which has played into the hands of politicians who were in the Remain camp.

It's obvious that the EU has conspired with Remainers like May to make something as simple as no longer being a member of the EU a long, arduous, and most probably futile process. I think even the most devout Remainer can see how corrupt the process has been, but it seems that many don't want to admit that and stand up for democracy. The air of "to hell with democracy" from angry Remainers is the worse thing about this disgusting situation. British democracy has been flushed down the toilet. Who can salvage the situation and give people faith in democracy again? It certainly won't be Corbyn.




I agree with most of your points. People(mostly Remainers) have complicated the situation and done everything they can to muddy the waters. It really was a simple vote: remain part of the EU, or leave the EU. The verdict was to leave, so that aspect of the future for Britain was simple. Guiding Britain to a better future as a sovereign nation away from EU membership is another kettle of fish, but one that people in power should have embraced with enthusiasm and determination. It's such a shame that Cameron and May have decided to put the interests of the EU above the will of the British people.

You are Jacob Rees-Mogg and I claim my £5 sterling.

[Paulos G]

Have you listened to the interview?

He is spot on with everything he says.

He may be a bumbling fool, but everything he said was true.

The President has subsequently described the interview in The Sun as, and I quote, “Fake news.”

[MartyG]

You are Jacob Rees-Mogg and I claim my £5 sterling.

You're probably better off claiming in Euros

[MartyG]

The President has subsequently described the interview in The Sun as, and I quote, “Fake news.”

And claimed (again) he predicted the referendum results when he opened his resort in Scotland. Which was the day after the results. Nothing Trump says is true, he doesn't understand the concept of honesty.

Then you have Melania Trump's press secretary insisting Donald Trump *did* predict Brexit day before the vote even after being shown definitive proof it's not true - the whole administration tell lie after lie after lie.

[Leon Retro]

Ummm... it's the EU's fault because they didn't urge the UK to leave? You can somehow get to this point and come away thinking this is all the EU's fault because they didn't TELL the UK what to do? .

No, that isn't what I meant at all. I simply made the point that the EU should have backed the UK government to stand by the referendum vote, and by doing so respect democracy. I used the word "urged" because it would have been clear from the moment Cameron stood down as prime minister, that the government didn't seem fully committed to honouring the result.

Of course, it is obvious that the EU has been happy with the UK government's weak approach to Brexit, so it has played along with making the process as difficult as possible. By doing so, it has also shown a lack of respect for democracy. The UK government and the EU have worked together to make sure Leavers do not get what they voted for.

The ideal situation would have been for Cameron to stand by the decision and lead the UK to a future without membership of the EU. That would have stifled all the moaning from Remainers - and sent out a clear message that the result must be respected in the name of democracy. Instead, Cameron, May, and the EU have colluded to egg on the Remainers and make their undemocratic attitude seem justifiable.

As much as I can agree that guiding Britain to a future away from EU membership could be a worrying time for many people, it's up to the country's leaders to instill confidence in the people and do their best to create a bright future for the country.

Unfortunately, lots of Remainer politicians have done nothing but stoke the fears of the those who voted to remain, and by doing so they have created a feeling of anxiety throughout British society. All the negativity has even left many staunch Leavers with a feeling that the referendum was a complete waster of time. The lack of respect for the referendum result might ultimately damage British society for decades to come.

I can only hope that a true leader who respects democracy and the will of the people, comes to power. But where is such a person?

You are Jacob Rees-Mogg and I claim my £5 sterling.

[Dogg Thang]

This is a basic case of scapegoating. You're blaming the EU for undermining your own democracy for being, according to you, happy when the UK did this all by themselves. You're blaming Remainers for the anxiety caused by Brexit rather than the people who actually achieved it and ran.

And as for the "true leader" who can "create a bright future", that was my point earlier - if there was any kind of bright future with Brexit, any way to do this in a way that truly works for the country, someone somewhere across your 65 million people would have found it in two years. The absence this true leader should tell you everything you need to know. There is a very simple reason nobody has been able to put in place a successful Brexit plan.

[gIzzE]

The President has subsequently described the interview in The Sun as, and I quote, “Fake news.”

And he is right.

He said he has the whole interview available, not just the bits the msm have chosen to broadcast.

What bits do 'you' think he got wrong?