Europe III: April F-EU-Ls

[gIzzE]

So I've got this straight: You genuinely think that it's okay that a significant amount of British people were deliberately denied the right to vote on a referendum which shouldn't even be legally binding in any case?? Wow...just, wow...
.

Hold on, let's stop and think about this for a second.
Brits who have lived abroad for more than 15 years were not allowed to vote in the referendum, in the same way they can't vote at elections either.
I think after not living in a country for 15 years that is fair enough, many of my family have moved away, Italy, Portugal, Spain, and none of them felt hard done by, and none of them would have bothered voting either as they didn't feel it effected them any longer.
I don't think it would have made any difference to the outcome at all.
The fact you do? Wow.....just........wow!

You're damn right about the UK currently being put into a bad position, but anybody living in any kind of actual reality knows full well that none of the fault for this lays at the door of the EU or the people who wish to remain.

So the EU slowing turning a trading bloc into what it has become without ever asking the people if that is what they want is nothing to do with them?
Aa far as I am concerned that is, to borrow a phrase...wow.....just.....wow!

I think anyone who wants to remain in the EU is simply completely ignorant to what is going on within it, in the same way I am probably a thick racist bigot as far as you're concerned. I have spent the last 12 years studying the economics of the EU and I believe it is at breaking point, that was my reason for voting out. It is being covered up by the EU, ECB, governments, large corporations, Target2, and some of the leading EU banks who are over valued on their asset books by not just billions but trillions of Euro, the reality is we are almost at the point where we will see not just a recession but a depression like we have never seen before.

Sure the vote was probably won by people who don't want immigration or some other bollocks, but as far as I'm concerned the fact we are getting out I genuinely believe will be the best for the generations behind us, even if they simply can't see it now.


There are some real pluses to being within the EU, however, they are far outweighed by the corruption going on to hide the financial mess it is in, if it wasn't for that mess and the way they are trying to tie everyone into the EU more and more to hide it, I would have voted remain. But ho hum, these people never learn.

EU, a lovely idea, ruined.

[Neon Ignition]

I'd say I'd find it hard to put any blame for what's going on here on Remain voters, they liked the way things were and wanted to stick with them which is fair enough. I'm not sure how much but I'd definitely steer away from saying the EU was blame free though, there are multiple issues and concerns amongst EU nations that carry similar sentiments and problems as those the UK has been dealing with and the EU for too long was arrogant and ignored them. They've not entirely had a sunshine and lollipops run since the Referendum in other countries either at times. For the EU the Referendum was less a blindsided shock from nowhere and more:



They saw it coming, new the risk and the damage it would also cause to themselves and did nothing. They didn't need to do much either to defuse the situation, simply address the concerns with some hope of reviewing and responding to the key concerns that applied to other countries in the EU too but instead they didn't and let the entire thing unfold as it did. The EU is generally quite good at being hands off when it matters, like a Nanny who's quite good with your kids but you just wish they'd make more effort to keep the kids away from the kitchen knives drawer.

But again, in terms of all this having happened you could break down responsibility anyway you like, the vast-vast bulk of blame would be shouldered by Cameron. The referendum existed due to his career ambitions.

[Paulos G]

So you agree it was "fake news" or was it just the fact he used the cringeworthy term the reason you mentioned it?

I don't know whether or not it was fake news. I just don't give credence to people who take a Humpty Dumpty approach to words. I do think the term “fake news” is cringeworthy but that's not why I mentioned it.

[Neon Ignition]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/16/back-second-brexit-vote-says-conservative-mp-justine-greening

Former Minister Justine Greening has called for a second EU Referendum, pretty much wasting her time given how much that's not possible.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2018/jul/16/brexit-mays-plan-dead-say-tory-remainers-and-leavers-jointly-ahead-of-key-votes-politics-live

And just as quickly political commentators etc are starting to rubbish the notion. Whilst May's White Paper is increasingly being referred to as 'dead' with No Deal rising in probability.

[Dogg Thang]

Perhaps some sort of clarification vote is in order. The "WTF did you actually vote for?" referendum. A) I wanted out of EU, consequences be damned, B) I wanted out of the EU but jeez don't cripple the country while you're at it, folks, C) I wanted out of the EU, feel free to cripple the country but please don't affect my job in particular, D) I believed the bus, E) I don't like brown people, F) What's Northern Ireland? G) What do you mean? I voted to remain.

It means you could go for Brexit with a much clearer sense of what the country wants from it.

[Neon Ignition]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2018/jul/16/brexit-mays-plan-dead-say-tory-remainers-and-leavers-jointly-ahead-of-key-votes-politics-live

Teresa May suffers a ninth resignation over her White Paper.

The thing is, the Tories didn't want Brexit which is why they're so fudged, torn between delivering it whilst keeping themselves happy. What they've never been able to wrap their heads around is that it was abundantly clear when the referendum took place that those campaigning for Leave had no practical plan for delivering it. As far as broadstroke voting was concerned the only real known cornerstones were:

-End free movement
-Give the NHS more money
-Leave the EU
-We'll be worse off in the short to mid-term

The how's etc didn't matter and given all the current chaos is government led rather than public I'd wager most still don't care how we leave just as long as we leave. Lib Dems have failed to gain any traction as the only pro-Remain party, remain Labour MP's have failed to gain traction with their argument either likely because what held in 2016 still holds now - Joe Public doesn't care if we have Hard Brexit or not, hell, after the last two years I'd imagine a hefty chunk would actively opt for it just to kick the process along.

Really, it's the lack of balls the Tories have that have ruined Brexit. Their negotiating strategy comes down to:

May: "I'll give you 10 beans if you give me 50"
EU: "1 bean for 1 bean"
May: "Okay, 30 beans for 50"
EU: "1 bean for 1 bean"
May: "Hmm, 40 beans for 50"
EU: "1 bean"
May: "Shrewd move..." *looks at watch* "Okay we'll give 100 beans for 1 bean just give me something!"

They're too focused on the deadline too. Even if a soft deal got through we'd face years and years of it being picked at by both sides pulling to ruin it or drag us closer to the EU again.

We know there won't be a second referendum and even if there was it couldn't conceivably include an option that included remaining in the EU. We're almost out of time and if they don't have a good deal then they shouldn't take one at all. They need to be clear and committed... for the first time.

[Dogg Thang]

The fact that it appears to come down to one party is a problem in itself. When the implications go so far beyond one political term and fundamentally alters the course of history for the country seems like it needs everyone. Something that large shouldn't be in the hands of a few people, just as it shouldn't have gone out to an uninformed vote.

That said, did you get a vote when you entered the EU? I don't know. We did here a few times but not sure about the UK.

[fishbowlhead]

We’re going to end up with no government left and on our way into a Great Depression at this rate.

[Neon Ignition]

[MENTION=3144]Dogg Thang[/MENTION] - You're spot on, it's frankly disgusting that a cross party group wasn't put in place from the outset. I'm sure there'd have been all sorts of bickering but it's one of those rare events in politics that ascends above one party. They should have been grouped up with a clear outset target so they wouldn't spend the entire time trying to out-prat each other for their own gain and have it be independently reviewed throughout the process. Instead, they opt to just leave it to Swiss Toni.

If the Tories smell a real threat to May you'll likely see Hard Brexit come in to play quick either way. That way Labour would be left sweeping up the debris and taking the following 5 years blame.

The original EU vote predates me but from what I can gather it was a referendum only on whether the UK should enter the common market. The issues began when politicians took that vote as a starting point to wider EU inclusion which went beyond what the original vote called for. But politicians have to be power greedy and career minded and so a new level of power quickly emerged.

[Neon Ignition]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2018/jul/16/brexit-mays-plan-dead-say-tory-remainers-and-leavers-jointly-ahead-of-key-votes-politics-live

Number 10 has, for around the dozenth time, ruled out any chance of a second referendum.

[Neon Ignition]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/17/vote-leave-fined-and-reported-to-police-by-electoral-commission-brexit

The Leave campaigns fines for overspending limits and their originators Police issued fines have now been processed.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/16/theresa-may-narrowly-avoids-defeat-after-caving-in-to-rees-mogg

May barely made it through last nights voting on the White Paper amendments but did so by U-Turning on a few aspects that make it a harder form of Brexit. It's expected that that will be enough to hold off a leadership challenge but the more hardcore Brexiteer Tories will be more interested in the aspect that the amendments make it more likely that the EU will reject the White Paper and the UK will then be forced into a No Deal outcome.

[MartyG]

And today parliament will vote to go into summer recess early and possibly extending it: https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ent...b022fdcc5bf073

[Neon Ignition]

Apparently chances are it will get shot down, Labour are said to be furious that the Tories are trying that cheap move

[charlesr]

What a massive **** show.

Can't they get some economic experts to state the best deal approach for the country so that job retention and political career progression is taken out of the picture, and then just present that to the EU?

The idea that decisions on our future are being made to avoid a short term leadership challenge fills me with dread and revolsion

[fishbowlhead]

What a massive **** show.

Can't they get some economic experts to state the best deal approach for the country so that job retention and political career progression is taken out of the picture, and then just present that to the EU?

The idea that decisions on our future are being made to avoid a short term leadership challenge fills me with dread and revolsion

And people were expecting anything BUT this exact scenario? I mean seriously, politicians can’t organise the simplest of tasks, let alone a monumental task such as this.

Should never of even got anywhere near a vote, even a modest committee of sigh language capable chimps would say it’s a task FARRRRRR beyond the government to even start.

I’d be happy with a result that doesn’t end up in the uk isles proofing from existence at this stage.