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Europe III: April F-EU-Ls

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    #16
    My favourite bit on Guardian is where they say Corbyn was effectively asked what he would do if he asked for the Customs Union he wanted and the EU said no. His answer boiled mostly down to 'I'd keep asking'

    Utterly clueless.

    The basic trajectory of all this is that at some point in the next 12 months the Tories are going to turn up to the final vote with the deal they have and Labour will be in a driving seat. Yet, what they keep on misleading the public about is the nature of that vote. Either Labour votes in favour of whatever the Tories agree or they vote it down and the UK comes crashing out of the EU with absolutely no deal of any sort in place next March. There's no steering this away from the waterfall's edge and they need to stop falsely acting like they have a saviours touch to it all for remainers and the portion of young voters they engaged on that basis. They need to start positioning themselves as the party that has a clear and proactive (and financially sensible) plan for after Brexit otherwise they'll keep on handing the Tories the keys to number 10.

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      #17
      I think anyone positioning themselves as having a clear and proactive (and financially sensible) plan for after Brexit is probably a liar and shouldn't be trusted.

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        #18
        Originally posted by charlesr View Post
        I still think it's time politicians were removed from the Brexit process and replaced by experts. Maybe they have been, but it doesn't seem that way.
        if they had been removed from informing the public on the vote then we wouldn't be in this mess in the first place.

        I still don't understand how with so much blatant lies and misinformation that we still don't see the Brexit vote for the circus that it was. After seeing how the vote has affected our jobs, our community's, and our day to day living costs, we are in a far stronger more informed position to vote on whether we want to leave or stay in Europe.

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          #19
          Going far beyond Brexit and beyond UK politics (thinking of my own home country here), I have no idea why we don't have any sort of accountability for lies told in politics. Opinion is one thing but blatant misrepresentation of facts and outright lies are common and we seem to just shrug them off. Really feels like there should be some measures in place to cause politicians to choose their words more carefully and reign in their claims.

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            #20
            My favourite bit was David Davis, the epitome of Snake Oil Salesman, accusing Corbyn of selling snake oil.

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              #21
              Originally posted by Dogg Thang View Post
              I think anyone positioning themselves as having a clear and proactive (and financially sensible) plan for after Brexit is probably a liar and shouldn't be trusted.
              So a bit like the entire farsicle s**t show then?

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                #22
                I'm with dogg on the accountability. 90% of mps should be banged up for fraud. Lying swines.

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                  #23
                  Originally posted by Brad View Post
                  I'm with dogg on the accountability. 90% of mps should be banged up for fraud. Lying swines.
                  So can I float an idea? Which might be horrific but still...

                  It does almost feel like some kind of court system should exist. At the end of each parliament, the members of that parliament should have to be cross-examined on their activities and promises (and everything in their manifesto should have a "stakeholder", i.e. a person who puts their name on a given policy, pledge, advert or statement).

                  It's not so much that they would be barred from politics if they don't achieve their aims, but they should be punished in this manner if the evidence suggests they either didn't try, or simply failed due to incompetence (as opposed to market forces, unforseen events, etc.).

                  This should be a public process, so none of them get to hide behind a shrug and a "we don't know who put that on the side of the bus" - someone should be, by definition, responsible.

                  This is no different to any other job. On any business project, stakeholders are seen as responsible for motions, features, pillars, departments and the rest of it, and at the end of a project, you have a post-mortem which will factor into people's appraisals. If someone was responsible for part of the project which failed, you examine it. You don't necessarily fire that person but you establish if it was due to incompetence or just a failing of the wider business.

                  Now I can see part of the problem - how do you pick the jury. But putting that aside for the moment, I'm surprised a system like this doesn't exist in some form. Does any nation do this?

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                    #24
                    Passing judgement is an easy one to delegate!

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                      #25
                      Originally posted by Asura View Post
                      Now I can see part of the problem - how do you pick the jury?
                      You have a countrywide referendum

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                        #26


                        Comcast isn't scared of Brexit investments. They've just slapped a wad totalling $22bn on the table to outbid Fox in an effort to buy Sky. Is just over 50% of Sky really worth a third of what Disney is paying for Fox?

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                          #27
                          Originally posted by Asura View Post
                          So can I float an idea? Which might be horrific but still...
                          Totally. Not to punish them as such, but to promote them into actually trying in the first place.

                          You can fail and learn stuff and get it right the next time (if you get re-elected).

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                            #28


                            EU citizen rights issue is becoming unthreaded again whilst yesterday May effectively told the EU to blow their push for Northern Ireland to remain in the customs union, thereby widening the gap between it and the rest of the UK, our of their collective backsides.

                            I may be wrong, but if Labour now plans to pressurise the Tories over the eventual deal with the EU, wouldn't that drive all this to make a no deal scenario more attractive to the Conservatives? They know a trade deal with the EU will happen in time in any scenario and a no deal pretty much removes Labours position as it takes the union talk off the table and leaves them with the stuff neither party seriously disagrees over?

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                              #29
                              Originally posted by charlesr View Post
                              You can fail and learn stuff and get it right the next time (if you get re-elected).
                              There is a modern day political ploy around this; present an extreme idea, let the outrage come forth and fall back to the slightly less extreme plan which then seems moderate by comparison.

                              It's a con.

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                                #30
                                Originally posted by MartyG View Post
                                There is a modern day political ploy around this; present an extreme idea, let the outrage come forth and fall back to the slightly less extreme plan which then seems moderate by comparison.

                                It's a con.
                                Same ploy as some lootbox controversies, Martino!

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