RUSSIA is innocent - what is happening to the world? Россия восторжествует!

[Neon Ignition]

I can see the logic to that though despite its wealth Russia is quite far behind many economies so the risk of utilising an act of war to achieve that seems more of a reach than the notion that Russia did it themselves because they're run by a corrupt head.

Personally, I'm much more inclined to the idea that Russia (in some capacity) is behind it and that it's simply something they've routinely done for many years and just never anticipated that this particular instance would blow up on them like it has or that they lost control of the substance and Putin wants to avoid looking publicly weak/incompetent over the matter. I don't think it'll change anything overall though, I've never seen much to suggest the speculation about Putin's corruption aren't true but regardless he's a fact of life so they'll beat their chests for now against him but settle back in line over the coming months.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/26/130-people-feared-exposed-to-novichok-in-spy-attack-says-pm

May has said that up to 130 people may have been exposed to the toxin. She also says they are in possession of evidence that shows that the Russians lied about destroying their stockpiles and instead were looking into exporting them including the weaponisation and deployment of the toxin during assassinations.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/27/new-zealand-expel-russian-spies-cant-find-any

Meanwhile, after Australia joined the growing list of countries to expel Russian spies, New Zealand has said to too would expel some... except it can't find any

[fishbowlhead]

Russia is completely debt free and is now raking in silly amounts of money, Putin banned western banks from ever setting up shop in the country, they are the main supplier for the whole of the EU's natural gas, and they are best friends with Iran and China.
That's not a position the yanks can afford them to be in if they want to continue to be the dominant power.
I think their goal (IMO of course) is to strangulate the Russian economy.

Entirely plausible unfortunately. Just look at what the USA is doing to Venuzuela, won’t give our US private company’s exclusive rights to your oil while providing nothing back to your country? Fine we’ll make some story up and strangle you until you give in.


I used to have a great customer in Russia until the first lot of sanctions hit them. He’d spend about 40k each year in 2 hits. No questions asked the money would just hit my account then an order would appear, & he would pick the goods up himself saving me the hassle of the export paperwork (which is a real effing pain for Russia I can tell you).

I still get asked from Russians where they can get my stuff from all the time.

[MartyG]

May has said that up to 130 people may have been exposed to the toxin. She also says they are in possession of evidence that shows that the Russians lied about destroying their stockpiles and instead were looking into exporting them including the weaponisation and deployment of the toxin during assassinations.

If that's the case, given this military grade toxin is so deadly, why aren't there 130 corpses?

This just smacks of "Saddam's got weapons of mass destruction and can deploy them in fifteen minutes - holds up vial of white powder as proof that it's true".

Also from that article

Inspectors from the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) have begun working at the scene of the attack on the Skripals, with officials saying it would take two to three weeks to complete laboratory analysis of samples

If it takes two to three weeks to complete an analysis of the samples, how did the UK figure it out in less than 24 hours?

[Neon Ignition]

Though I'm aware this quickly descends into me making excuses for the home side, I think a lot of this also rests on the nature of outside observers perception of events as well.

The idea of a deadly toxin failing to kill its target or others isn't impossible, certainly it's done enough damage at bare minimum and may yet achieve its aim. The same with the analysis, there are all sorts of various aspects. It'd take little time to gain the samples you need to begin tracing its source but longer to trace any elements of it. They may well find it within a few days but it's a nothing left to chance scenario so it should have the proper time to analyse the scene, trace evidence and ensure any traces have been removed.

I'm certainly curious however as to the motives of making such a large scale turn against Russia on the current position the UK government is in during the investigation compared to past instances where they were much more muted.

[fishbowlhead]

If that's the case, given this military grade toxin is so deadly, why aren't there 130 corpses?

This just smacks of "Saddam's got weapons of mass destruction and can deploy them in fifteen minutes - holds up vial of white powder as proof that it's true".

Also from that article



If it takes two to three weeks to complete an analysis of the samples, how did the UK figure it out in less than 24 hours?

Because we obviously have the “real” evidence Marty, all this other evidence is just fake evidence. We’re making Britain the bigliest again with real evidence, long live real evidence!.

[MartyG]

The same with the analysis, there are all sorts of various aspects. It'd take little time to gain the samples you need to begin tracing its source but longer to trace any elements of it. They may well find it within a few days but it's a nothing left to chance scenario so it should have the proper time to analyse the scene, trace evidence and ensure any traces have been removed.

That's precisely my point - it takes time to do a proper analysis, get your facts and proof in order so that you can make your accusations with something to back them up.

[Cassius_Smoke]

If that's the case, given this military grade toxin is so deadly, why aren't there 130 corpses?

This just smacks of "Saddam's got weapons of mass destruction and can deploy them in fifteen minutes - holds up vial of white powder as proof that it's true".

Also from that article



If it takes two to three weeks to complete an analysis of the samples, how did the UK figure it out in less than 24 hours?

I think you have tapped in to something here. We struggle to accept what our government tells us now because we have been fed years of bull****. Even if its 100% true, the British people will never believe them now.

[Neon Ignition]

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/salisbury-nerve-agent-attack-britain-182600949.html

Apparently the UK presented 'unprecedented levels of intelligence' to support their accusations of Russian involvement in the poisoning attack which is what quickly convinced other nations to support the country.

[fishbowlhead]

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/salisbury-...182600949.html

Apparently the UK presented 'unprecedented levels of intelligence' to support their accusations of Russian involvement in the poisoning attack which is what quickly convinced other nations to support the country.

Uuuuggghhhhh huuuuuggghhhhhhh.

It’s definitely not like the time Tony presented unprecedented levels of intelligence for weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, we sware.

[MartyG]

There's a dossier apparently

[fishbowlhead]

I'm sure it has a burgundy coloured folder and EVERYTHING!

[Sketcz]

Ты грязная европейская свинья! Советская империя поднимется и подавит всех вас, как битлов! Не музыкальный. Крошечный грязный вид. Вид, из-за которого сапоги советских солдат грязные! Россия невинна! Родина является жертвой преследования!

[Brad]

@scetcz
If you have something interesting or constructive to say, please go ahead, in English. I am interested in your thoughts and I expect I probably even agree on some of it. But quit with the insane nonsense written in russian; it means I have to go translate it and I don't have time for that. Ta.

[Dogg Thang]

I think it’s worth applying the thought processes here a little wider. We know from prior events that it is entirely possible that evidence can be either wrong or simply and willfully non-existent. This happened in the Iraq WMD fiasco. So yeah, this is definitely a possibility. Applying this a little wider, can we also say that it’s possible and even likely that Russia are up to some seriously shady stuff? Looking at prior and even pretty current events, yeah, this seems very likely. I know which I feel is the much likelier of the two (and keep in mind the two things are not mutually exclusive - the U.K. might have no evidence while Russia are up to some seriously shady stuff) but either way the existence of prior events only indicates a possibility and little more.

[MartyG]

If the UK had any real damning evidence that the Russians did it, they'd be waving it about for all to see.

I'd agree that there's a reasonable chance of their involvement, but our government is equally up to shady shenanigans - simply saying the Ruskies did it, trust me, isn't enough given previous form.

If OPCW properly publishes their findings and it corroborates what's being said, then I might be a bit more inclined to point towards Moscow.