Disestablishing the Church of England

[charlesr]

English as a GCSE subject is totally stuck in the past, with dead, white authors. The whole thing needs revamping from the ground up to be more relevant and inclusive. Even some Iain M Banks or something (oh wait, that's a dead, white author....)

[wakka]

Yes, but you have to analyse it from memory (according to my daughter). Seriously, why can't you have it written down and analyse that?

What’s wrong with having to memorise it? I would say having to memorise things is pretty much a mandatory part of exams. The idea is you come away knowing some poetry. No bad thing at all.

[Brad]

Well, we disagree I guess. Learning stuff that you can apply to the subject later on I'm fine with e.g. nouns, verbs, synonyms in English or trigonometry in maths but learning a poem in its entirety, or many poems in this case I liken to learning a dozen specific sums, rather than formulas or techniques

[Zen Monkey]

Imagine the amount of parents in famine ridden Africa counties that turn to god for help because there child is starving, or disease ridden.

Clearly It’s not god they need; it’s fresh drinking water, good food and medicine that is required along with stable governments, jobs, etc etc

Why have you reduced religion to something people chose over the bare necessities? Of course we all need water, food in our belly, a roof over our head - no one claims religion is a substitute for those. But if all men were well off, if poverty and disease were eradicated, there would still be much to do do produce a happy and peaceful society. Happy societies consist of happy people and it's there where religion has relevance. My struggle isn't one of survival. I'm fed, clothed and healthy. My struggle is to remain calm in the face of everyday disappointment, rejection, loss and suffering. My struggle is maintaining a joyful heart with love, compassion and generosity and not giving into fear. My battle is treading lightly through the world. Is giving myself fully to the present. Those things don't come with a 55" flat screen TV or an iPhone 10, they don't come with a fancy job, a big house or a trophy girlfriend. But they can be nurtured within and it's there where religion can help.

Fifteen years ago I woulda agreed with you. I was very cynical about religion. Thought it was for the desperate and gullible only. Turned my nose up at it. It smelt funny to me. But experiences and encounters and, more than anything, living with devoutly religious people of various faiths, have led me away from that preconception. Where once I regarded religion as a fanciful belief, now I see the practicality in it. Where once I saw it as a form of indoctrination, I now see how it can help emancipate us from the tyrrany of ourselves. To me it isn't about ensuring a place in heaven or anything like that, it's about this life here and now.

You think someone really believing in Jedi powers is sensible?

I don't mind whether people are sensible or not. I'm not into defining the parameters that everybody must live their life between and deciding that everybody must be sensible is just that. If someone isn't imposing themselves on others, who cares how they live?

[Asura]

What’s wrong with having to memorise it? I would say having to memorise things is pretty much a mandatory part of exams. The idea is you come away knowing some poetry. No bad thing at all.

Being required to memorise things is certainly part of education, but I'm not sure there's much use in memorising vast amounts of prose and poetry.

I mean in History it's useful to know dates and such, but then we have problems in our education system where kids can tell you dates of the five key advancements in textile production in the Industrial Revolution, but can't tell you if the Korean war happened before or after the Gulf War.

That being said, I'm not up-to-date with how things currently are. Even that history example was from a paper published about 5-10 years ago.

[Neon Ignition]

R.E's primary usefulness within schools these days would and should boil down to instilling a sense of acceptance and understanding to younger generations. Educating them in various faiths and beliefs is useful in avoiding the persistent ignorance that permeates so much of society today so I can justify the courses value in that sense.

When it comes to Religion itself and the arguments in its favour... I find myself struggling. I find it better to separate Religion from Faith.

Faith that there is a God, that that God is responsible for different things in the universe etc is a personal belief and I can roll with that. Religion, that is a concoction that couldn't be more blatantly man made and obviously corrupt in inception. Whilst it's true that a great many people have benefitted from their religion that fact doesn't hand wave away the rottenness in their organised forms. When it comes to disestablishment, particularly when relating to its effect on schools it's about removing that bar that makes people join up with a church just to give their kid a better chance at getting a decent education. It's closing a door that should have never been opened. If a family believes in a faith it's natural they will guide their kids to that faith also, there's no need for the state to prod them along also. The same applies to anything else. It's one divorce that's long, long overdue.

[baad bwoy]

I cant remember being asked to remember any poems and stuff when I took either GCSE English Literature, or Language.

[wakka]

[MENTION=9465]Brad[/MENTION]

Yes, I think we'll have to agree to disagree poetry is a work of art, and knowing a few artfully written lines can give you points of reference that you reuse for years to come. It also means you've got a basic grounding in what the art of poetry actually is - something that you won't get from simply knowing how to conjugate a verb or the difference between a simile and a metaphor, which are important but really just the basic mechanics of the language.
[MENTION=5941]Asura[/MENTION]

I'd agree that memorising vast amounts of prose and poetry might well not prove useful (although there are worse ways to spend your time), but as I recall GCSE English Lit requires you to memorise half a dozen short to medium length poems at most. It's not really that much.

I'm probably a bit biased as I went on to do English at undergrad level, which is still very basic in many ways, but you do need to remember lines from poems and novels and from secondary sources in order to incorporate them in exam essays. I never considered it particularly unreasonable - it's a short hop from knowing the material well to memorising specific parts of it.

Anyway I have taken us wayyyyy OT. As you were!

[Zen Monkey]

R.E's primary usefulness within schools these days would and should boil down to instilling a sense of acceptance and understanding to younger generations. Educating them in various faiths and beliefs is useful in avoiding the persistent ignorance that permeates so much of society today so I can justify the courses value in that sense.

When it comes to Religion itself and the arguments in its favour... I find myself struggling. I find it better to separate Religion from Faith.

Faith that there is a God, that that God is responsible for different things in the universe etc is a personal belief and I can roll with that. Religion, that is a concoction that couldn't be more blatantly man made and obviously corrupt in inception. Whilst it's true that a great many people have benefitted from their religion that fact doesn't hand wave away the rottenness in their organised forms. When it comes to disestablishment, particularly when relating to its effect on schools it's about removing that bar that makes people join up with a church just to give their kid a better chance at getting a decent education. It's closing a door that should have never been opened. If a family believes in a faith it's natural they will guide their kids to that faith also, there's no need for the state to prod them along also. The same applies to anything else. It's one divorce that's long, long overdue.

Saying organised religion is all bad (or all good) is too much of a simplification. Yes, there's corruption in religion and paedophilia and dogmatism and it all needs addressing but there's wisdom in it too. The Church of England has ministers like Peter Owen Jones (who you may know from Around the World in 80 Faiths, Extreme Pilgrim, How to Live a Simple Life, Question Time, and The Big Questions) who deliver messages worthy of our attention. I've never been to church but would go regularly to hear the kinda stuff he talks about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SR27PfW3OI His congregation are very fortunate in my opinion. The issue is that there are people working in religion who aren't actually religious in the true sense, who are in it to serve themselves, rather than to serve others. But I don't believe in throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

[Neon Ignition]

If you eradicated the powerhouses of each religion, a world without religious leaders, the Vatican or similar you'd still have people such as the minister you mention doing the same work they do. If there's one thing that history has shown, it's that people's faiths and their desire to create communities within those faiths is doggedly persistent. What they don't need is powerful, hoarding, immoral core of their religions leaders.

Religious faith is important, there are unquestionably some people who simply can't function with the notion that there isn't a being out there to pin everything on. But it's a shame that so few ever truly look at their beliefs and lives in a thorough bout of self-assessment and instead cling to whatever faith they've been shepherded into like it's a security blanket. If I was a Catholic I'd be raging - and I mean lividly raging against the Vatican, instead it's a tourist trap.

I'm realistic about none of it going anywhere, I just don't think it should be allowed to have involvement in areas it has no reason to which includes the nations politics, laws and higher ups.

[Dogg Thang]

Yep, you can have the wisdom without the institution. But it's much more difficult to retain all the negatives without it.

[Zen Monkey]

You can get wisdom elsewhere, of course, You can find it in philosophy and spirituality but they have more stigma attached to them than religion . For many, their only regular source of wisdom is that heard attending religious service. It's unfortunate that the opposite is also true as some preachers give terrible messages encouraging intolerance, violence and greed. People do religion and people come in many flavours and have all sorts of motives, some honourable, some not.