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Canon-Strike: The Terminator

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    #16
    The first Terminator is still absolutely brilliant. Yes, I feel it's easily the peak of the series.

    T2 for me is in the same category as Aliens and Nightmare on Elm Street 3 - brilliant when you're a young teen and way more fun but doesn't quite hold up to the same scrutiny as an adult, whereas the original film in each series still remains as great as ever (well, Nightmare is hardly in the same league as Alien but hopefully you get my point about 3).

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      #17
      I didn't even enjoy T2 back when it came out. I've always found it a bit lacking. As for the other sequels I haven't watched any of them. Considering Salvation: the future world of The Terminator, to me, is like the real world bits in The Matrix ... it's part of the overall story but not a part I want to spend more than a minute or two in.

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        #18
        Yep, the current state of... well, the vocal online fanbases of franchises like Star Wars etc are definitely circling an all-time low point.

        In terms of series high point though, T2>T1 for me quite easily. I do enjoy T1 but at its core its a very simple film that relies almost entirely on the unrelenting nature of the T-800 to hold suspense and it sounds awful but the films aged too much for me for that sense to still carry through with the film. Whilst T2 abandoned the darker, simpler thriller nature of the original I find it expands on the first films concept magnificently and elevates the original film by quite a large margin. T2 can be a but slow in parts but it's a strong film, a superb sequel, ambitious and has genuinely iconic moments the likes the franchise never experienced in other entries.

        In that regard it's why I prefer Aliens to Alien as well. Alien has aged much better than T1 has but likewise Aliens contains aspects of what makes the first film works whilst absolutely exploding the concept wide open but in positive ways. It's another great example of how to do a sequel and like T2 they're strong on their own merit.

        Rare examples though, probably telling that both followed on from very lean and low on detail originals.

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          #19
          Well I did EXACTLY what I said I wouldn’t do and watched Terminator 3 last night. That’s how much you can trust my word. In my defence, it’s the only one I hadn’t watched recently and had only seen it once back in the day so, following this discussion, I thought I might give it a watch to see how it compares with my memory of it.

          One thing that didn’t match my memory is that it doesn’t have as many gags as I remembered. Nowhere near as many as Genisys and probably not even as much stuff played for laughs as in 2. I suspect the opening star glasses bit, which really didn’t match the tone of the movie, defined my memory of the tone. But it actually doesn’t play a lot for laughs. This is a good thing.

          The other thing that came out better than my memory is just how it looks. For whatever reason, I remember thinking it looked very TV-like and nowhere near as cinematic as it should have. I now am not sure why. It’s actually a pretty good looking movie and some of the effects are still very impressive.

          But the negatives stand - mainly that, while not a bad movie, everything it has was done better in 2 and this really never aims to reach beyond that at all. Terminator tries to kill them, they try to survive and prevent the end of the world. It’s pretty much the same. Only now it’s kind of muddled because there is a virus subplot that they play no role in almost until the end where, as it happens, they still play no role in and also the Terminator is out to get other people so doesn’t quite have that sense of focus. The TX is somewhat unintentionally comical where Patrick was incredibly menacing and Arnie was a relentless powerhouse. Some of the action sequences seemed more going through the motions than being exciting (the crane chase in particular - why take the crane?). And John Connor was very poor. I don’t even blame the actor or any one individual because it seems like quite a conscious thing they were all going for but he was weak. Danes played her part well but it felt like she diluted things rather than adding a new crucial element.

          It’s a cover version of 2 without the guitar solo. Genisys attempted to add the guitar solo back in and it started well and then switched to the accordion.

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            #20
            Yep, the humour isn't plentiful but when it hits it's massively poorly judged so stands out like a sore thumb. The cover version vie is the best way to describe the film, you can feel the beats in the writers room where they thought it'd be easy to make a popular sequel to T2 by offering more of the same.

            In the first 15 minutes they probably decided:

            We've done robot, we've done liquid metal... robot with liquid metal?
            We've done male... female this time?
            We've done bad Arnie, we've done good Arnie... good and bad Arnie?

            Ticking their way through T2's elements probably assuming the ending would define the film enough. It kind of does, it's a damned good ending but the good moments are strung together by stuff that errs to popcorn filler rather than great.

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              #21
              For it's input into the TF discussion, this will need updating too

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                #22
                I had totally forgotten about this thread and I'm going to quote my Terminator 3 sum up because my 2018 self had a way with words that my 2019 self has clearly lost:

                Originally posted by Dogg Thang View Post
                It’s a cover version of 2 without the guitar solo. Genisys attempted to add the guitar solo back in and it started well and then switched to the accordion.

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                  #23
                  I came into this thread to try and work Dark Fate into the timeline theory as I think it contributes about 3 or so more timelines... but I got a headache instead.

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                    #24
                    Setting aside T3-5:



                    So Dark Fate sets up the notion that if you change the future then it ceases to exist but the consequences of it continue to exist. This explains why Skynet can be stopped in T2 and the Terminators still be sent back rather than be erased from time and create a paradox. The film also wraps up the question of why Skynet didn't just send back multiple Terminators by saying time travel is hard to do so Skynet couldn't send back hundreds, in reality it sent back 5 to different points in John Connors timeline from birth to Judgment Day.

                    Knowledge of the future though allows Sarah and John to change events by destroying Skynet in its infancy in T2. It ceases to exist meaning that the Terminators it sent back in time are displaced along with John who was created by the original timeline but in this new one has no fate. Sarah destroys the 4th and 5th T-800's thinking Skynet is still on the way somehow given the third one completed its mission then disappeared.

                    So then you have the notion of humanity's actions always leading to a similar outcome, that a new Judgment Day is now on the way caused by Legion that is basically Skynet in all but name. It uses Rev's, suspiciously Terminator looking machines, and this means that events are repeating themselves with Sarah Connor proving to be the anomaly because she's the only person aware of the timeline changes.

                    Dark Fate is probably interesting because as much as it channels T2 at times it's story is more akin to T1, there's no real attempt to stop Judgment Day here which is presumably what the next film would focus on.


                    I think the set up is okay, it's like a soft reboot meaning we don't entirely know what's next but Dani isn't sold well as being John's replacement. I'd probably find it more interesting to see the next film see Judgment Day looming and Dani be killed. This would cause a further new timeline but at the point where Judgment Day couldn't be delayed further. It would be a good jumping point to lead into the final Terminator film where in this new timeline 'Skynet' finally starts to emerge, it brings Arnie back into the fold somewhat by having T-800's first start to step out and have Grace come back into it but effectively have Judgment Day begin to happen but fail - the world witnessing it without having been destroyed by it thereby forcing mankind to right its ways and in effect prevent it from being a constant threat, all stopped by the eventual central hero -- Sarah Connor. Becoming the figurehead that fate once had her son and Dani in place to be but the 5 film arc builds her into being, the thing that was supposed to kill her ended up creating the ultimate version of her.

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                      #25
                      So, now the dust has settled:

                      If we set aside trying to bend the post-Terminator 2 canon to fit a convoluted timeline of events: Which of the four sequel films to Terminator 2 was the best at delivering a sequel?

                      Two answers are needed:
                      01 - Which of the threequels is the best film?
                      02 - Regardless of the films quality, which threequel narrative is the best fit?

                      And no - T2 should never have had a sequel is not an accepted answer

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                        #26
                        T2 should never have... oh wait. Sorry.

                        Okay, I haven't seen the last one so I'm answering this with one possible answer missing. I can only speak for T3, Salvation and Genysis. And for me, while a very unpopular movie, the answer is easy: Salvation.

                        T3 isn't a terrible movie by any means. It's just absolutely redundant. It's a weaker cover version of T2. There is literally no reason to watch the movie. If you have a hankering to put on T3, just watch T2 instead because it's got all the same stuff but way, way better. So that answers your point 1 and 2 for me there because it is as redundant narratively as it is just a movie.

                        Now Genysis is different in that I think it falls down in the exact same way as a movie (and falls victim to atrocious casting) but, narratively, offers something more interesting. Or at least showed the potential to. There are some cool ideas in this movie and, in some ways, could have really widened out the movie universe and thrown it off into a different direction... but it did so in a film that just shot itself in the foot over and over until the credits rolled and we all finally felt free of it.

                        Which leaves Salvation, a movie most people seem to hate. And yet, for me, has the most to offer as a sequel for a few reasons but one is a biggie - it is the only sequel of the three I've seen that wasn't attempting to be a retread of T2. It is its own movie. It builds on the legacy of the first two but doesn't repeat them. So narratively, it's the only one that even tries to offer an experience that isn't already redundant the moment the movie starts. In terms of being a great film, well, I don't think it's great but, taken for what it is, I think it's a pretty good scifi story that's told pretty well. Bale and that kid from Star Trek (left us too early but I can't remember is name) are really good in it. I think it was let down a little by the main guy (Sam something...? Can't remember his name either) but he performed well enough to keep the movie going, unlike Genysis where the leads crippled the movie. So I think it's an enjoyable movie and one I can't just get a better version of by putting on T2.

                        So for both questions, my answer is Salvation. It's the much-maligned black sheep of the Terminator franchise but I feel, if people took it for what it is rather than really just wanting to watch T2 again, they'd probably like it.

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                          #27
                          It's a funny one as despite the sense of fatigue that had set in I thought that the newest film would be the easiest to consolidate as the better T3 option because of Cameron's involvement but I was surprised at how much of the other sequels it repurposed and not always to better effect. I feel that at this point, if we ever see a seventh Terminator movie we will see one released that is either part of the same universe but narratively disconnected or a complete reboot which kind of see's one of these four films act as a closer of sorts.

                          Terminator 3: Rise of the Machines
                          It's the tone with this one more than anything, still to this day. Despite how daft it often is I enjoy a lot of the decisions it made which stand up quite well especially since it was the only sequel to be made that wasn't done so as a reaction to a previous failed attempt. The opening future sequence is great and I like the decision to set it in the hours before Judgment Day rather than a fair bit of time before it. I'm alright with the idea of Sarah being dead from cancer as well, it was a good tie in that even the present was ruthless and she hadn't escaped her fate despite changing the timeline. I also liked that she remained prepared and paranoid for the rest of her days rather than sunning on a beach ala Dark Fate. The TX concept was okay though once again the casting and manner in which they delivered it was off. It was also nice idea to see Skynet make another attempt on changing its future but it did so without setting out to target John, having learnt from past failure. The action sequences are solid too and I know its a broken record but the ending of the film is one of the standouts of the entire franchise. The twist of events, the fact that it's signposted in the opening as well as the plot and even the films title and yet it still lands in that twist moment as well as the actual delivery of the event unfolding. To pull that off after a lighter toned retread of T2 and that plot be the known central pillar of the three films was very well done. Despite the debt the film keeps servicing to T2 there's definitely the bones of a worthy true threequel that wraps up the franchise neatly within T3.

                          Terminator: Salvation
                          A bit like you say DT, this one is easily the most distinct of the franchise. I think my main issue with this one, in terms of following up on T2, is that it doesn't really move the plot at all. Other than explaining how Connor gets his face scar the story of Marcus doesn't seem to have any real relevance. It may have worked a little better if Marcus had been brought in alongside a story that revolved more around how Terminators were often supposed to pass for human and infiltrate human settlements but whilst John suspects Marcus they get to that very quickly despite it never really being real threat in the film. It works fine enough in terms of a side narrative to the franchise which is something they should have considered more but I find that at best T:S is just kind of there and is easily the one of the four threequels I dislike the most as a result.

                          Terminator: Genesys

                          On the face of it T:G is just pure timey wimey nonsense but I can see the nugget in there of them looking at the Terminator narrative and saying that each time Skynet sends a Terminator back it creates an alternate timeline. The trouble is that this film just goes nuts with the concept which is both why I do find it enjoyable as a fun action flick set in the universe but it also makes the entire weight of the plot disappear. Being able to jump through different timelines and rewriting the events of T1 and T2 just makes everything feel irrelevant and without weight. I can only imagine how nuts the planned sequels would have gone with their plans for a timeline hopping Skynet.

                          Terminator: Dark Fate
                          So, the opening. I don't mind it, I know some fans were annoyed but it was symptomatic of how fourth time around the franchise didn't have much rope left to work with. It's a bold moment but is probably where I start to get hung up on the film as a true sequel to T2. The central pillar of events is to have John out the way (ala T3) and have a new target be his replacement, being the woman who time has taking over his role in events (ala T3). So they send back a Terminator that is a mix of machine and liquid (ala T3) to track her down but she crosses paths with the surviving Connor (ala T3) who always remained prepared for Judgment Day despite the ending of T2 (ala T3). It turns out they did stop Cyberdyne causing Judgment Day but it still happens due to human nature and technology, just at a later date (ala T3) and so fight to protect the new saviour whilst fleeing on the road aided by the T-800 that killed John (ala T3). It feels more like it's vindicating the first attempt at a sequel and whilst the tone is more in line, to an extent, with T2.

                          Narratively, as much as they lean on repeating the T2 set up I think I prefer the straight up pre-Judgment Day approach and as an overall arc I would give it to T3 because DF cribs it but without resolving itself in a way that contributes that much whereas T3 brought things full circle by having Judgment Day play out.

                          They all fail in one regard or another but with T3 a bit of casting and its tone are probably its worst sins for me whereas Salvation is too disconnected, Genesys is tonally wrong to a greater extent (and off its nuts) and Dark Fate gets a better tone but tells the same tale less effectively.

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                            #28
                            It should've ended after the first.

                            Skynet should've been sophisticated and logical enough to send billions of carnagetastic microscopic nanobots back to terraform our planet of life and fauna to prepare their infernal digital factories.

                            Instead, they send a replica of a thirty stone man who gets killed by a couple of humans.

                            The best case scenario would've been a twist ending where his chip is salvaged and installed into a kiddie toy like a Speak N Spell or summat, destined to remain impotent and unpowerful yet frustrated and aggressive for the rest of time.

                            But they wanted to remake the same film in increasingly worse margins for each sequel, instead.

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                              #29
                              With a heavy heart, Salvation. At least it walks it's own path.

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                                #30
                                That's the one I really need to see. I caught a clip on telly one night shift and it looked alright, at least adult in tone.

                                Genisys is a boring, flabby mess but it's at least worth watching once for the big budgetedness of it all (and the retro T1 scene).

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