General Emulation Discussions

[Dogg Thang]

Well, if the question is about a correlation between piracy and emulation

Ummm... the question was really simple and clear. You even quoted it so you can’t have missed it. It was “if the game was doing well at the time, would it have been okay to maybe pirate it back in the day?” You’ve now made a 5th post putting forward a case that I haven’t disagreed with and I even said straight out that we’re on the same page. Will there be a 6th? There’s no need, dude! Really. I don’t even need an answer to the question I posed any more. The thread has moved on. Let’s both move on with it.

[wakka]

It is interesting, as others have pointed out, how much the attitude has changed in the microcosm of this forum, and, I think, more widely in game playing communities of the internet. Twelve or thirteen years ago people were generally dead against it, I dimly remember arguing about it and asking what the point was in paying for SNES games on Ebay versus downloading the ROMs.

Interestingly there are now far more opportunities to pay legally for old games than there were then. You've got GoG, we did have the VC for quite a while, you've got ACA and so on and so forth. Back in the PS2 days you got a compilation disc made up mostly of games you didn't want, and that's if you were lucky!


I just take a common sense approach. If there is a legit way to get a game via a boxed rerelease, download service or contemporary compilation - I don't count Ebay here - I will do that. If there isn't, I will get it via another route.

Obviously pirating new games is totally verboten. I've been guilty of it in my younger days but would never do it now. I love games and I want to support the industry, but I'm pretty sure that's most of us here.

[Leon Retro]

“if the game was doing well at the time, would it have been okay to maybe pirate it back in the day?”

Well, I sort of answered that question by saying that the piracy modern games is always wrong. By "modern" I mean games that are current at whatever point in time that happens to be. So pirating Shadow of the Beast in 1989 would have been wrong, but playing a copy of it using emulation years later is not harming sales, so it shouldn't concern anyone. The same with arcade games. Playing Splatterhouse on MAME isn't hurting NAMCO.

Of course, we could go on and on about this subject, but I will always stand by my belief that playing old games on emulators shouldn't worry anyone - even Nintendo.

[Leon Retro]

It’s a theft of intellectual property Leon; you wouldn’t steal a car, would you?

I made a point to answer this sort of question. If someone took Rainbow Islands and put it on iOS and Android for say £5, without buying the license from Taito, it would obviously be a crime.

I'm pretty sure that if you spoke to game publishers, even big name companies like EA, they would say that piracy is all about people copying new games that are in demand. If people could easily copy FIFA 19 for the PS4 and play it online, many would. That would have a serious impact on EA. But someone playing a copy of FIFA '98 on the N64 is an irrelevance. So, my whole point is that someone playing an old game on an emulator shouldn't worry/bother anyone.

Anyway, if I could magically download a Ferrari for free, I certainly would. Vroom Vroom!

[Colin]

I don't see how playing a bygone game from a defunct system via emulation can even be considered an issue at this point. Take one of my all time favourite games, Soldier Blade on the PCE, is it likely to be made officially available to me again? No. And let's be honest, if it was released again it would probably be in a new graphical art style that made it unrecognisable from the game I love. (**** your HD reimagining bull**** publishers, we don't want it!)

[_SD_]

It’s quite sad that some games could be lost forever due to ridiculous IP licensing issues... Alien vs Predator and Outrun 2006 are two prime examples.

[dvdx2]

I made a point to answer this sort of question. If someone took Rainbow Islands and put it on iOS and Android for say £5, without buying the license from Taito, it would obviously be a crime.

I'm pretty sure that if you spoke to game publishers, even big name companies like EA, they would say that piracy is all about people copying new games that are in demand. If people could easily copy FIFA 19 for the PS4 and play it online, many would. That would have a serious impact on EA. But someone playing a copy of FIFA '98 on the N64 is an irrelevance. So, my whole point is that someone playing an old game on an emulator shouldn't worry/bother anyone.

Anyway, if I could magically download a Ferrari for free, I certainly would. Vroom Vroom!

Lol - I was only only joking anyway

[Dogg Thang]

Here’s a related thing: a legal (almost, maybe, untested as yet) lending library of ROMs - https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2018/...problem/?amp=1

[Leon Retro]

I don't see how playing a bygone game from a defunct system via emulation can even be considered an issue at this point. Take one of my all time favourite games, Soldier Blade on the PCE, is it likely to be made officially available to me again?

Even if Soldier Blade were sold again as a reproduction, the demand wouldn't be huge. I also don't think publishers of such things would consider emulation a threat to their business, as people who buy reproduction games obviously know how easy it is to play retro games using an emulator, but they still think having a physical copy is more satisfying. So I don't think emulation takes away sales of reproduction retro games.

If Konami decided to sell perfect repros of Axelay for the Super Famicom, I'd buy one, despite having the game on all sorts of emu systems. It would be better than my old battered copy. I think it would be the same for enthusiasts of any given retro game. It's a niche market though, so banning roms wouldn't suddenly make people want to buy repros.

Games like Soldier Blade had their time in the sun, and aren't really commercially viable these days. People who would buy a digital copy on Steam or the PS4, would do so despite knowing they can emulate it. So ultimately, there isn't a huge market for even the best retro games, simply because most gamers are focused on new games.

Of course, some people have a negative view of emulation and roms, so they will unfairly equate it to piracy. I think that's an extreme view though. I don't think anyone should have a problem with people playing old games on an emulator. Even sellers of second hand retro games might be surprised by how many people play a rom and then want to buy a physical copy. So as much as emulation is harmless, it can also create interest in any particular game someone is emulating. So emulation a positive thing in more ways than one.

[Sketcz]

It’s quite sad that some games could be lost forever due to ridiculous IP licensing issues... Alien vs Predator

The source code for AvP on both the Jaguar and the remake/sequel on PC have all been publicly released. The PC version was ported to Xbox as a homebrew game, while the Jag version has yet to be talked about. But those titles at least are safe.

Unless you meant the arcade game by Capcom, in which case no, we will probs never ever see it again.

[Dogg Thang]

It’s quite sad that some games could be lost forever due to ridiculous IP licensing issues

But the IP issues are how the world works and, without them, you likely wouldn't have had Aliens or Predators in the first place. Far from ridiculous, they are what makes some of these things worth making in the first place. I'm guessing you probably know that though. It sucks for some games (I would like to see Wipeout 2097 on PSN) and it sucks for TV too (a lot of old shows aren't around due to the cost of relicensing the music) but that's the way the deals were made and you need to have some sort of understanding of the legal complexities in putting any production together, be it games, TV or movies or whatever. And the costs in trying to renegotiate old deals after the fact.

Beyond that, if we're making a distinction between emulation of old games and piracy of modern games (and we absolutely should), it's also important to distinguish game history preservation (crucial) from "I should get to access it because I want it".

[QualityChimp]

What spurred Nintendo into action?

Was it the release of the NES/SNES minis and a surgge of people seeking ROMs to put on them?

[Neon Ignition]

Honestly, knowing Nintendo it was probably as simple as them clamping down due to the upcoming NES games on the Switch online service.


I also thought as well, even the stealing a car analogy doesn't apply

Copying a new release game would be the equivalent of stealing a Ferrari from a dealership. That's the clear cut argument against it however ROMS/ISOs of older games don't apply to that description because they aren't made available via the original company and you aren't stealing them from the private owner.

Given Roms/Isos of the older games most people download are taken from sites, torrents etc that are publicly releasing them for use then downloading a ROM doesn't hurt the original games maker in the same way stealing the Ferrari from Derek at number 43 doesn't harm Ferrari as a company. The company already made its money and has no association with that direct specific item once the private owner purchases it in terms of money making.

Now, given the nature of how ROMS/ISOs of older games are publically accessed and distributed its more along the lines of if Derek has bought a Ferrari and then offered it to people to have for free, would you take it? Damned straight you would. Does it mean someone benefitting from that is less likely to buy a Ferrari themselves, possibly, probably not (given we're talking Ferrari's )

[Dogg Thang]

Honestly, knowing Nintendo it was probably as simple as them clamping down due to the upcoming NES games on the Switch online service.

And this would feel understandable. They own those games and are making them a part of a new service (I use the term loosely) and nobody has any right to them regardless of whether they are old or not.

[Neon Ignition]

Yep, it's just a shame that potentially a ton of other and mostly un-Nintendo related titles would be lost by their actions. It's not so much a huge deal as it's the internet and the site in question was just one source but it shows how little regard their is to the wider world of preservation etc as soon as the protection of profits for a few NES games that possibly even most subscribers don't care about comes up.

Ironically they moved harder on that than they did on anywhere providing WiiU titles when the system was still alive