Game of Thrones / House of Dragon

[tokyochojin]

There's a persistent rumour that after the airing of next week's final episode, he's going to announce that the last 2 books are finished and that 6 will be available very soon, with 7 to follow later in the year.

Yeah, the big man himself debunked that rumour on his blog - http://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2...-the-internet/

[Neon Ignition]

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I can buy Cersei being driven by her motherly instincts but King's Landing's defence and her strategy to deal with the threat of Dany is still a staggering level of character stupidity. It rests entirely on he planning for only the weakest of assaults and inaction on her behalf which, despite arrogant, isn't her way and sells her short in her final moments

[MartyG]

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I dont think shes flipped to madness, Vary's is slowly poisoning her with the help of that kitchen girl, shes not eaten in days and she has just lost her entire support network this is the reason she looks grey and ill. yes Everyone is either dead of has betrayed her she has nothing left in Wetero's, we complain about the writing but a lot of people in here have completely missed massive glaring points of the plot and the show up until this point.

She was never a savior shes a tyrant who murders people who get in her way to seize power, every problem she's solved has been with fire and blood. Its easy to say she was liberating people but she also has a habit of burning people who stand in her way. Did she take prisoners in her last battle in Westero's? nope she burned them for refusing to bend the knee.

She said herself in the episode that she did not have love so she would use fear. She didn't want the bells to ring she wanted to burn the city to send a message. Who in Westero's will attack her claim now after she has laid waste to its largest city. who will oppose her right to rule now that she has show what she is capable of. If she had stopped and shown mercy and taken prisoners she would be dealing with the north wanting to be self governed and john's claim to the throne coming up again and again. by doing what she did shes cemented her position and sent a very clear message that's shes not to be messed with and is someone to fear.

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I had missed that Varys was poisoning her, but now I look back at the exchange near the beginning of the ep now you've mentioned it, it's more obvious that's what was happening - on my first watch I thought he was just asking about her health. I'm not sure Tyrion knew that was occuring though or that Daenyrs knew - it wasn't made obvious that was the reason he was killed, just that he'd betrayed her.

Daenyrs only killed the two Tarlys as they refused to bend the knee at Westeros, so they would have remain threats and couldn't be left alive as prisoners - no disputing Daenyrs has used violence in the past - but it's never been on innocents as we saw in this episode (whilst ignoring her enemy Cersei in the Red Keep), it's that point I have issue with as I don't believe killing the women and children was necessary to cement her position, they'd already surrendered - that was the step over the line, that was the step into madness because her paranoia had gotten to the point she believed that none of the people of Westeros would accept her as ruler after Jon's second rejection as her lover - as you say, she believed there was no love so went to fear. It was poorly set up.

Now that Daenyrs has slaughtered all those people though (despite previously saying that “I am not here to be queen of the ashes.”), there's no way Jon or Tyrion will stand with her anymore, so one of them will attack her claim or more precisely assassinate her (or maybe they'll play the Arya card again) as regardless of how she got to where she is, she can't be allowed to be the ruler of seven kingdoms. Or maybe it will end on a dark note with Daenyrs as ruler - I think I'd actually prefer that outcome as a viable story end, but I don't think that's where the writers will have gone with it.

[fishbowlhead]

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I had missed that Varys was poisoning her, but now I look back at the exchange near the beginning of the ep now you've mentioned it, it's more obvious that's what was happening - on my first watch I thought he was just asking about her health. I'm not sure Tyrion knew that was occuring though or that Daenyrs knew - it wasn't made obvious that was the reason he was killed, just that he'd betrayed her.

Daenyrs only killed the two Tarlys as they refused to bend the knee at Westeros, so they would have remain threats and couldn't be left alive as prisoners - no disputing Daenyrs has used violence in the past - but it's never been on innocents as we saw in this episode (whilst ignoring her enemy Cersei in the Red Keep), it's that point I have issue with as I don't believe killing the women and children was necessary to cement her position, they'd already surrendered - that was the step over the line, that was the step into madness because her paranoia had gotten to the point she believed that none of the people of Westeros would accept her as ruler after Jon's second rejection as her lover - as you say, she believed there was no love so went to fear. It was poorly set up.

Now that Daenyrs has slaughtered all those people though (despite previously saying that “I am not here to be queen of the ashes.”), there's no way Jon or Tyrion will stand with her anymore, so one of them will attack her claim or more precisely assassinate her (or maybe they'll play the Arya card again) as regardless of how she got to where she is, she can't be allowed to be the ruler of seven kingdoms. Or maybe it will end on a dark note with Daenyrs as ruler - I think I'd actually prefer that outcome as a viable story end, but I don't think that's where the writers will have gone with it.

Makes sense.

[Digfox]

I enjoyed this episode more than the last two. Although I generally agree the show's quality has declined over the past two seasons.

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I thought Cersei's sequence was handled well, and although Daenerys descent into rage feels off it has been clearly foretold as mentioned.

I think my issues with the show are many but mainly; the lack of detail and mistakes now, the inscenscant fast travel, the way the white walkers were dealt with first and after seven and a half seasons never got that far. Essentially a plot device. The reasonably predictable nature of certain events in the last few seasons. Also the rush to cram everything into the last season that probably needed much more time.

However Tyrion and Jon Snow have become quite disappointing characters. I thought with Peter Dinklage's character they were setting him up for more. The difference in acting ability is also noticeable although given the huge cast perhaps that is to be expected.

I think the show could end on a satisfactory or interesting ending but I am expecting to be dissapointed.

[prinnysquad]

I’ve been reading a lot about yesterday’s episode online. It’s a minefield of contrary opinions that truly proves that, no matter what they did, huge numbers of people wouldn’t be happy.

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One criticism is the switch-flicking of Dany. I find this criticism very weak. She’s a Targaryen. Flick a coin and what do you get? Her family history is replete with people seizing power by using dragons to indiscriminately raze cities. She was abused as a child. She stood by and watched her brother - her tormentor and heir - get brutally murdered. She has tried hard to stick up for the little guy - but in the process has secured armies of unwavering loyalty. She’s obsessed with the absolutism of her claim and her right to rule. She has previous for burning and killing. She burnt the Tarlys when they refused to bend the knee, when other, more politically astute options were available. She’s lost the majority of her armies, a dragon (child) and her trusted bodyguard/advisor in an act that the North does not love her for. She’s lost her other advisor, a dragon, her lover, and found out that her claim has been supplanted in a different area of crisis. She’s being undermined by Varys (and possibly poisoned). Her destruction of a people who wouldn’t revolt for her, when she’s poisoned by paranoia and doubt, with her background, makes fair enough sense. Her arc may be rushed, but it’s certainly not out of the blue.

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Other people have issues with the deaths/activities of certain characters. Jaime was always going to go back to Cersei. He’s done that all along. It’s what Lannisters do. Tywin instilled in them that protecting the family is the only thing that mattered. Which is pretty much what Jaime said to Cersei at the end. He grew as a person and saw her for what she was, but the chains were too strong to throw off. Likewise Tyrion. After everything, when it came to the crunch he still wanted to protect his family. That’s in keeping with the overall theme of the Lannister group since day one.


A lot of online criticisms seem to boil down to ‘why didn’t x character do y’ comments. This attitude belies the heat of context. These aren’t rational decisions in calm situations. They’re instinctive and base. Cersei maybe should have had a back up plan - but what exactly? She’d hired sellswords, secured a fleet that had had some success, and developed a weapon that could take down a dragon. What else could she realistically do? She defended her interests in the best way possible. Bail out of the Winter war, and try to defend a fortified location with troops, ships and weapons against the weakened forces of her enemies.


A lot of criticism doesn’t seem to offer viable alternatives, in my view. This series was always going to kill off loved characters, perhaps in ways that don’t befit their standing. Jaime and Cersei - crushed? The outrage! Or is it? The same critics bemoan the lack of surprises in the latest series’, yet when a character meets a cruddy ending - which happens in real life - there’s hell on, because they deserved a more meaningful swansong. They’re entitled to their outrage. It’s been like that since the beginning though. I remember the uproar when Ned actually got the chop. This principled, glorious, upstanding warrior being executed like a common thief. I liked the way it’s killed off the characters so far, throughout the series, and this one is no exception.

[Neon Ignition]

When it comes to character deaths, it's definitely a just me thing but I'm finding some of the scenario's a bit eye rolling because they're so on the nose with their imagery. It works for some characters but not if they do it with almost everyone which seems to be the way they're going with it

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Theon, the coward, dying solo facing the 'ultimate' big bad. Jorah, cast out by Dany, gets to die in her arms after protecting her and declaring his love for her. Melisandre, having misled others in their destiny, gets to redeem herself by fulfilling her own. Messandei, a freed slave, dies a prisoner. Varys, master information manipulator, dies having been caught manipulating information. Euron, a man obsessed with making his mark by knocking up Cersei and then killing Jamie dies mistakingly believing he'd accomplished either of those goals. The Hound, hates his brother and fire, dies in fire fighting his brother. Qyburn creates a Frankensteins monster for his Queen, is killed by his own creation. Jamie and Cersei, obsessive siblings wrongfully in each others arms die in each others arms.

It's so on the nose it hurts and does give it a very bad fanfic vibe at times as some of these just don't work and feel like your eyes should 360 in their sockets when they happen.

[Lebowski]

When it comes to character deaths, it's definitely a just me thing but I'm finding some of the scenario's a bit eye rolling because they're so on the nose with their imagery. It works for some characters but not if they do it with almost everyone which seems to be the way they're going with it

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Theon, the coward, dying solo facing the 'ultimate' big bad. Jorah, cast out by Dany, gets to die in her arms after protecting her and declaring his love for her. Melisandre, having misled others in their destiny, gets to redeem herself by fulfilling her own. Messandei, a freed slave, dies a prisoner. Varys, master information manipulator, dies having been caught manipulating information. Euron, a man obsessed with making his mark by knocking up Cersei and then killing Jamie dies mistakingly believing he'd accomplished either of those goals. The Hound, hates his brother and fire, dies in fire fighting his brother. Qyburn creates a Frankensteins monster for his Queen, is killed by his own creation. Jamie and Cersei, obsessive siblings wrongfully in each others arms die in each others arms.

It's so on the nose it hurts and does give it a very bad fanfic vibe at times as some of these just don't work and feel like your eyes should 360 in their sockets when they happen.

I think its got to a point where the writers cant win, you either have the lives of these people brought to a satisfying conclusion or you don't, the Freefolk Reddit and GOT Reddit is in full on fan rage melt down at present. On one hand deriding certain character deaths as bad fan fiction while complaining that other character arcs are unsatisfying.

I do think they should of gone with realism and more pointless deaths, but then there are no pointless death in this show and there never have been yes key characters are killed off with regularity but these deaths normally have far reaching consequences, it also gets to a point where you cant do that anymore or you don't have a story.

The last few episodes could of been a lot better though, they are not as bad as people are saying i personally would have set it up as follows

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Danni's fleet sale down to kings landing she sees Greyjoys fleet blockading dragon stone and lights it up ship by ship, there is too many ships and one by one the unsullied ships are destroyed (balista and wildfire is rained down upon them), grey worm and mesandi are killed in the battle. Danni is furious and fly's straight to kings landing and starts burning the red keep to the ground this is where she looses a dragon to "ONE" rogue shot , she burns Cersei alive while Jamie is still struggling to get to her he is the pov form the ground and is killed among the ongoing rage destruction of kings landing by Dany.

Meanwhile the small northern Army is still marching on kings landing the reduced original non respawaned army are cut off and forced to surrender by a massive 20,000 strong golden company army. They are marched to kings landing to be turned over to Cersei.

Upon arriving at kings landing we see it wrecked and burning, Danni wants to burn the golden company but Tyrion and Varris talks her round to bringing them onboard as allies, she agrees to take on the debt of the crown for the freedom of her army, she has won she is queen but is now in debt to the Iron Bank of Braavos.

[Neon Ignition]

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I've seen nothing but eventual death for Dany since very early in the show, she's been too plainly a bad force and a poor contender since so early in events that the way the GoT world works struggles to allow a victory for her. I think for me the final seasons failings still rest perhaps less on the arcs and more on the delivery, it's just structurally very poorly designed and has failed to land pretty much every hit its made. Very similar plot marks could have been delivered in a much more satisfying way without much change in budget and no extra episodes

[Neon Ignition]

The shows had a lot of dissection at work this week and the resounding stance (considering the embarrassing campaign that launched this week from fans wanting S8 refilmed) is that there is absolutely no way...

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Dany was ever anything other than a villain in the making. Those losing their minds that she isn't ending the show a walking saint and saviour have literally spent 8-9 years committing themselves to a staggering misread of the character both in the show and pretty much in the books too.

[MartyG]

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If the show had done a better job of the transition to evil Dany, there wouldn't be as much furore over it - just two episodes ago she was saving humanity by fighting the white walkers stopping them from killing all the people she just slaughtered. That's why there's so much backlash - because the writers haven't done a good job of setting it up at all.

[eastyy]

Somebody said and i sort of agree with

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It had felt like they had decided on how they wanted the show to end for each character, but to get the characters to that point they had to really rush it and make characters do stuff that did not make sense in the grand scheme, Like they decided on what will happen but thought they would have two season to do that

[fishbowlhead]

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If the show had done a better job of the transition to evil Dany, there wouldn't be as much furore over it - just two episodes ago she was saving humanity by fighting the white walkers stopping them from killing all the people she just slaughtered. That's why there's so much backlash - because the writers haven't done a good job of setting it up at all.

Yup. Honestly, this season has been ridiculous, and not in the good way.

[dataDave]

Hilarious.

[prinnysquad]

Dany wasn’t evil 100% of the time. She’s not the antichrist. She has had moments of greater clarity and sensitivity. The reason she took on the army of the dead was because they posed a threat to all life, irrelevant of political allegiance. There’s no point in ruling over millions of corpses. It provided a temporary distraction away from her main goal. It also distracted her from the gathering clouds of her insecurities and paranoia, and the tempered the development of her Targaryen ruling style.