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    Originally posted by Asura View Post
    . Taken as a whole, I've loved the show, and the action in this season is very good. I just think the storytelling and characterisation aren't as good as they once were.
    It's still one of the best shows on TV, but I'd say the characterisation particularly has suffered in later series - before season 8 started I binged through seasons 1-7 again and you can see this aspect has suffered most as the series has gone on. Euron was terribly depicted in the series and came across as a moron of a pantomime villain, compared to Joffrey and his interactions with the different characters like Sansa, his mother, Tyrion & Marjorie.


    I just wish they'd spent more time on Daenerys's breakdown and her interactions with John. They only briefly touched the surface here and it's been portrayed very binary, rather than the more complex situation that it is. I don't particularly have a problem with the action sequences or that Drogon was able to destroy the entire fleet, if anything the ability to reload the scorpions so quickly and easily seemed more of a stretch

    Comment



      I don't think Daenerys had a breakdown; She was always that way. She just became more angry after Misanday was murdered. It wasn't an entire, unexplained character change like some here are making out. Word of John's right to the throne got out, she ws betrayed, her friend got murdered, she went on a rampage. Simple as that really IMO

      Comment


        She's never been about murdering thousands of innocents.

        If she doesn't have a red light saber for the finale I'm going to be annoyed.

        Comment


          Season 2
          When my dragons are grown we will take back what was stolen from me. We will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground.
          Fans last episode:


          GOD NO WHYYYYY???

          Last edited by Family Fry; 14-05-2019, 05:05.

          Comment



            That's the thing with Dany, it's been clear she's not fit to rule for years to the point it's amazing she has such a fanbase that consistently misreads her character. Dany is incredibly poor in judgment, has a saviour complex, is self entitled and only tempered by the reason of those around her. I think it's a mis-read to class her as having gone mad, she's pretty in line with the approaches of many tyrants of the GoT world.

            Bigger character struggles have been the largely useless Jon, Tyrion having become a tactical moron etc.


            For me, the trouble with Ep5 is largely that it makes absolutely no sense and served to try and ruin Cersei at the last moment. She's arrogant sure but it doesn't excuse the scale of bad decision making that betrays years of her tenacity.

            Cersei was facing two scenarios when she met with Dany and Jon at the end of S7 and said she'd support them but secretly planned for her forces not to turn up:

            1-Dany and Jon would fail against the White Walkers and the Night King would advance upon King's Landing
            2-Dany and Jon prevail and are left with heavily depleted forces for Cersei to wipe out

            However, the show decided that neither applied. King's Landing had fairly minimal ground forces and some Scorpions on the outer walls. In essence she failed to plan for either outcome despite having the advantage on nearly every level, this is bearing in mind that it's largely luck that the Iron Fleet wasn't wiped out in that ambush of Dany and the dragons and also that King's Landing wasn't facing two dragons instead of just the one. She also seemed to have no back up plans etc which arrogance or not is simply not how she rolls, we've seen that she's a stickler for living to claw back another day. Hell, we see several wildfire explosions within the city reminding us of another potent weapon she seems to not bother deploying.

            What's very clear is 6 episodes isn't enough but the wavering quality in the last few seasons also shows more was never going to be a guarantee either. S8's trouble is that it's structurally poor. Looking back they should have held back on the large scale battle episodes till later. Instead of having two battles in Ep 3 and Ep5 they should have had Winterfell fall and Dany's forces fall back. It'd be a chance to dedicate more time at the front half to character moments and also to create a more desperate scenario which would help explain how Dany could become increasingly unstable as she finds herself betrayed and pinned between King's Landing and the Walkers. Then the action takes place in a single battle that begins during Ep4 and ends halfway through Ep 6 giving more of an impression that it was a truly long and arduous battle whilst hitting mostly the same character death beats but more naturally explaining why everyone is at KL at the end. Half and ep then to wrap things up.

            The show may be expensive to make but the writers should have know they were in for trouble when the White Walkers lasted less time than Tyrions boat ride a few seasons ago.

            Genuinely, I do enjoy it but it's largely on the basis this is the end. If GoT was a running show it'd be starting to unravel like TWD did and there has to be massive concern about the quality standards for the made up on the fly prequel that's in the works. That and I'll say it - fans and Martin may have used it as a comparison and a joke but truly, Lost ended better.

            Comment


              Originally posted by Brad View Post

              I don't think Daenerys had a breakdown; She was always that way. She just became more angry after Misanday was murdered. It wasn't an entire, unexplained character change like some here are making out. Word of John's right to the throne got out, she ws betrayed, her friend got murdered, she went on a rampage. Simple as that really IMO
              Originally posted by Superman Falls View Post

              That's the thing with Dany, it's been clear she's not fit to rule for years to the point it's amazing she has such a fanbase that consistently misreads her character. Dany is incredibly poor in judgment, has a saviour complex, is self entitled and only tempered by the reason of those around her. I think it's a mis-read to class her as having gone mad, she's pretty in line with the approaches of many tyrants of the GoT world. .

              The art direction of the show is suggesting otherwise though, they purposely changed her look from the way they usually portray Dany to the evil Dany



              They made her look more like Lysa Arryn, which I'm quite sure wasn't by accident. Her advisors had been tethering her somewhat and mostly she was heeding their advice, but the show hasn't portrayed her in quite the same paranoid and completely lacking in compassion lets mass murder innocent women and children of a city that just surrendered way before this season, previously the targets of her wrath have been actual enemies and mostly deserving of it. So I'd say the show is suggesting that the betrayals and deaths of those close to her did flip a switch in her head to the side of madness.

              Last edited by MartyG; 14-05-2019, 09:01.

              Comment


                The more the show runners have got away from the books the more it proves they can’t write anything consistent, not even on the same scale as Martins material.

                Total tosh the last few episodes.

                Comment


                  They are just taking the easy way out...


                  by just killing everyone.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by Superman Falls View Post

                    That's the thing with Dany, it's been clear she's not fit to rule for years to the point it's amazing she has such a fanbase that consistently misreads her character. Dany is incredibly poor in judgment, has a saviour complex, is self entitled and only tempered by the reason of those around her. I think it's a mis-read to class her as having gone mad, she's pretty in line with the approaches of many tyrants of the GoT world.

                    Bigger character struggles have been the largely useless Jon, Tyrion having become a tactical moron etc.


                    For me, the trouble with Ep5 is largely that it makes absolutely no sense and served to try and ruin Cersei at the last moment. She's arrogant sure but it doesn't excuse the scale of bad decision making that betrays years of her tenacity.

                    Cersei was facing two scenarios when she met with Dany and Jon at the end of S7 and said she'd support them but secretly planned for her forces not to turn up:

                    1-Dany and Jon would fail against the White Walkers and the Night King would advance upon King's Landing
                    2-Dany and Jon prevail and are left with heavily depleted forces for Cersei to wipe out

                    However, the show decided that neither applied. King's Landing had fairly minimal ground forces and some Scorpions on the outer walls. In essence she failed to plan for either outcome despite having the advantage on nearly every level, this is bearing in mind that it's largely luck that the Iron Fleet wasn't wiped out in that ambush of Dany and the dragons and also that King's Landing wasn't facing two dragons instead of just the one. She also seemed to have no back up plans etc which arrogance or not is simply not how she rolls, we've seen that she's a stickler for living to claw back another day. Hell, we see several wildfire explosions within the city reminding us of another potent weapon she seems to not bother deploying.

                    What's very clear is 6 episodes isn't enough but the wavering quality in the last few seasons also shows more was never going to be a guarantee either. S8's trouble is that it's structurally poor. Looking back they should have held back on the large scale battle episodes till later. Instead of having two battles in Ep 3 and Ep5 they should have had Winterfell fall and Dany's forces fall back. It'd be a chance to dedicate more time at the front half to character moments and also to create a more desperate scenario which would help explain how Dany could become increasingly unstable as she finds herself betrayed and pinned between King's Landing and the Walkers. Then the action takes place in a single battle that begins during Ep4 and ends halfway through Ep 6 giving more of an impression that it was a truly long and arduous battle whilst hitting mostly the same character death beats but more naturally explaining why everyone is at KL at the end. Half and ep then to wrap things up.

                    The show may be expensive to make but the writers should have know they were in for trouble when the White Walkers lasted less time than Tyrions boat ride a few seasons ago.

                    Genuinely, I do enjoy it but it's largely on the basis this is the end. If GoT was a running show it'd be starting to unravel like TWD did and there has to be massive concern about the quality standards for the made up on the fly prequel that's in the works. That and I'll say it - fans and Martin may have used it as a comparison and a joke but truly, Lost ended better.
                    see you completely miss the fact that


                    The thing with Cersei is Everything Cersei dose she dose for her children, and like Danny all her support system is stripped from her, layer by layer. her plan is pretty full proof If she is attacked by what she believes will be a compassionate invader a free-er of slaves she has a human shield around her, and in fornt of that is Batista and archers as well as a **** ton of soldiers, for the advancing forces. She has made it very hard to attack kings landing and Cersei believes this too.

                    As for the wild fire how would she use this? to me it looks like she has it set up under the streets to catch advancing soldiers, but they never make it that far into the city as one by one Dani is burning the streets and laying waste to the capital. Could she of used it to fling at the enemy yes but that would mean leaving gaps on the wall in the dragon defenses.

                    Like Danni, Cersei looses everything, her home, her support network, and her power and her last instinct is to protect what she has left her trying to escape and protect her child its not a betrayal of her character but it is a bit of a kicker for those waiting for this hated characters death to humanise her and see her death as a scared and frightened mother isn't the death people wanted.

                    Tyrion is also not a tactical moron he shouldn't be her hand as he has a massive conflict of interests, he still loves his family, this is clear from his scene with Jamie and his choices are framed by this.


                    Last edited by Lebowski; 14-05-2019, 09:59.

                    Comment


                      What's Grrrrrrr Martin doing anyway?

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by Lebowski View Post
                        see you completely miss the fact that


                        The thing with Cersei is Everything Cersei dose she dose for her children, like Danny all her support system is stripped from her, layer by layer her plan is pretty full proof If she is attacked by what she believes will be a compassionate invader a free-er of slaves she has a human shield around her, and in fornt of that is Batista and archers as well as a **** ton of soldiers, for the advancing forces. She has made it very hard to attack kings landing and Cersei believes this too.

                        As for the wild fire how would she use this? to me it looks like she has it set up under the streets to catch advancing soldiers, but they never make it that far into the city as one by one Dani is burning the streets and laying waste to the capital. Could she of used it to fling at the enemy yes but that would mean leaving gaps on the wall in the dragon defenses.

                        Like Danni, Cersei looses everything, her home, her support network, and her power and her last instinct is to protect what she has left her trying to escape and protect her child its not a betrayal of her character but it is a bit of a kicker for those waiting for this hated characters death to humanise her and see her death as a scared and frightened mother isn't the death people wanted.

                        Tyrion is also not a tactical moron he shouldn't be her hand as he has a massive conflict of interests, he still loves his family, this is clear from his scene with Jamie and his choices are framed by this.

                        Yeah, with that...


                        There are a lot of people who are disappointed that Cersei didn't get "what she deserved", but then no-one gets that in Game of Thrones. Ned Stark didn't deserve to be executed, Jon didn't deserve to die for the first time... Characters don't, habitually, get what they deserve, for better or worse. I think the only person who did was Rhaegar with his golden crown, perhaps Joffrey.

                        That being said, I think the actress did a great job, with her being defiant up until a point, but the way she just breaks was very human.



                        Also...


                        I was disappointed with Jamie. I wanted Jamie to kill Cersei, then himself.

                        Last edited by Asura; 14-05-2019, 09:34.

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Zaki View Post
                          What's Grrrrrrr Martin doing anyway?
                          There's a persistent rumour that after the airing of next week's final episode, he's going to announce that the last 2 books are finished and that 6 will be available very soon, with 7 to follow later in the year.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Asura View Post
                            There's a persistent rumour that after the airing of next week's final episode, he's going to announce that the last 2 books are finished and that 6 will be available very soon, with 7 to follow later in the year.
                            If I were a betting man I’d say they haven’t even been started and he won’t even bother now.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by MartyG View Post

                              The art direction of the show is suggesting otherwise though, they purposely changed her look from the way they usually portray Dany to the evil Dany



                              They made her look more like Lysa Arryn, which I'm quite sure wasn't by accident. Her advisors had been tethering her somewhat and mostly she was heeding their advice, but the show hasn't portrayed her in quite the same paranoid and completely lacking in compassion lets mass murder innocent women and children of a city that just surrendered way before this season, previously the targets of her wrath have been actual enemies and mostly deserving of it. So I'd say the show is suggesting that the betrayals and deaths of those close to her did flip a switch in her head to the side of madness.


                              I dont think shes flipped to madness, Vary's is slowly poisoning her with the help of that kitchen girl, shes not eaten in days and she has just lost her entire support network this is the reason she looks grey and ill. yes Everyone is either dead of has betrayed her she has nothing left in Wetero's, we complain about the writing but a lot of people in here have completely missed massive glaring points of the plot and the show up until this point.

                              She was never a savior shes a tyrant who murders people who get in her way to seize power, every problem she's solved has been with fire and blood. Its easy to say she was liberating people but she also has a habit of burning people who stand in her way. Did she take prisoners in her last battle in Westero's? nope she burned them for refusing to bend the knee.

                              She said herself in the episode that she did not have love so she would use fear. She didn't want the bells to ring she wanted to burn the city to send a message. Who in Westero's will attack her claim now after she has laid waste to its largest city. who will oppose her right to rule now that she has show what she is capable of. If she had stopped and shown mercy and taken prisoners she would be dealing with the north wanting to be self governed and john's claim to the throne coming up again and again. by doing what she did shes cemented her position and sent a very clear message that's shes not to be messed with and is someone to fear.

                              Last edited by Lebowski; 14-05-2019, 10:00.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by Lebowski View Post


                                I dont think shes flipped to madness, Vary's is slowly poisoning her with the help of that kitchen girl, shes not eaten in days and she has just lost her entire support network this is the reason she looks grey and ill. yes Everyone is either dead of has betrayed her she has nothing left in Wetero's, we complain about the writing but a lot of people in here have completely missed massive glaring points of the plot and the show up until this point.

                                She was never a savior shes a tyrant who murders people who get in her way to seize power, every problem she's solved has been with fire and blood. Its easy to say she was liberating people but she also has a habit of burning people who stand in her way. Did she take prisoners in her last battle in Westero's? nope she burned them for refusing to bend the knee.

                                She said herself in the episode that she did not have love so she would use fear. She didn't want the bells to ring she wanted to burn the city to send a message. Who in Westero's will attack her claim now after she has laid waste to its largest city. who will oppose her right to rule now that she has show what she is capable of. If she had stopped and shown mercy and taken prisoners she would be dealing with the north wanting to be self governed and john's claim to the throne coming up again and again. by doing what she did shes cemented her position and sent a very clear message that's shes not to be messed with and is someone to fear.
                                Yeah I agree


                                Also at various points in previous series she has shows how ruthless she can be.

                                Executing Meereenese noblemen with no regrets.
                                she said early on “When my dragons are grown… we will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground.”
                                and
                                “I will take what is mine with fire and blood.”
                                There are a number of times both Jorah and Tyrion have had to steer her away from harsh action.

                                The list goes on.

                                People on-line are complaining that its been a quick turn of character but really she's had this coming for a while.

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