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Is Western Civilisation in Decline?

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    #31
    Oh no, another irks thread how many is it now?!

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      #32
      Also seemingly it’s turned into the “we’ve become our dads” thread somewhere along the way.

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        #33
        We haven't even gotten into the theory that love may simply be a biological byproduct thereby placing the emphasis squarely back on Science

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          #34
          Meanwhile, Zen Monkey is riding a giant dog and getting high(er?) at the peak of mount Snowden.

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            #35
            Originally posted by Zaki View Post
            Meanwhile, Zen Monkey is riding a giant dog and getting high(er?) at the peak of mount Snowden.
            Falkor from Neverending story?

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              #36
              Well, the kid from the first Neverending Story Died of an overdose so...be careful ZM!

              "You can't die from an overdose of nature."

              Put the 'shrooms down bro.

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                #37
                Doctor! Quickly! This man has had too much nature and is dying!
                Nurse, fetch me some science to combat the too much nature!

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                  #38
                  double post
                  Last edited by Zen Monkey; 29-04-2019, 15:06.

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                    #39
                    Originally posted by Brad View Post
                    I suspected from the title that this thread would be hippy and religion vs science and reality. Not disappointed!
                    You know me. I hate to disappoint.


                    Originally posted by Dogg Thang View Post
                    I don't think the Nazis were quite with you on this point.

                    As before, what I feel from your posts is a huge gulf between where you'd like to be, possibly the feelings or connection you aspire to, and where you're at. You seem to have a huge dissatisfaction with the state of your world and, as a result, revere anything which isn't that, be it somewhere else or some other time. In doing so, you're casting judgements while seemingly thinking people shouldn't.

                    But I think you should. Judge away. Only by looking and recognising what is wrong, casting judgement on those things, will you see the need to improve and fix them. If you weren't making a judgement that having no insects is bad, you couldn't improve on the situation. And some of that will require judgment of the actions of those creating and contributing to that situation. So you have my blessing to judge.

                    But I also believe that there is so much good that fantasies of other times are blinding you to. In aspiring to another place, another time, you cannot see the wonders that are right here. In that, I wish you good luck and a clarity of vision.

                    To sum up on the thread topic - I think society has its ups and downs and we have so much wrong and so much to fix. We have the capacity to do so much damage but we also have the capacity for great things too. And many people have it better than ever. History is a dark, nasty, dirty place to live. We have it better. As for people, we shared years with Bob Ross, Mister Rogers, Jim Henson, Big Bird, Bowie, George Carlin and so many, many more. We've been lucky. But there will be others. Personally, I fear for many aspects of humanity (and I don't villify fear the way you do) but I'm really looking forward to seeing where we can go from here.

                    Why do discussions involving opposing opinions usually deteriorate into examinations of character? Forget about me. I'm not that interesting or unusual. Like every human, there is hypocrisy and selfishness and greed and ignorance and racism and homophobia and misogyny in me. Finding fault in others is not interesting. Or difficult. To be human is to be fallible. Let's stick to the discussion, to whether or not we, as a species, find ourselves in a precarious position. I think we do. I think we're squandering our great gifts. I think we're polluting what was once a paradise. It's nnot about a dissatisfaction with the world. I love the world. It's about questioning our collective consciousness and subsequently the sort of society we're creating. I think that we've forgotten that a rich life consists fundamentally in serving others and something greater than ourselves, in trying to leave the world a better place than we found it.

                    I'm not hankering for a past or romanticing years gone by. I want a brighter future, that's all, because I feel that where we're headed right now ain't that pretty. Nihilism - a disease of the soul - seems on the rise, and so too does our addiction for superficial things. Where is our conviction for substantial things like justice, truth, and love? I'm guilty of it myself, I'm one of the many idiots who rushed out and bought a high definition TV when there was nothing wrong with his standard definition TV, one of many fools who went and bought a PS4 when he was still happily playing his PS3. A Switch when he was still happy with his Wii U. I question that behaviour. Why are we willing to destroy the planet in exchange for toys? In the name of distraction and entertainment? It's unintelligent to destroy the thing we need most.

                    I was listening to BBC Radio 4 a few weeks ago during the climate change protests in London. They were interviewing people in the area to gauge their opinion on the protest and everyone expressed annoyance, either because they couldn't get in to work on time, or because it delayed their ability to get to certain shops, or because it had impacted on them in some way. Not one person expressed sympathy or support or echoed the importance of bringing attention to looking after the planet. Not one person seemed to understand that without a healthy planet there'll be no jobs and shops. We shouldn't need reminding that we, all of us, live here:



                    Doesn't matter what your social, political, religious and existential views are. It's home for everyone.


                    Originally posted by Zaki View Post
                    Mung beans.
                    Mm mmm.



                    Originally posted by Wools View Post
                    I don't believe religion has a place in this world anymore.

                    That's not because it's the downfall of a civilisation. That's because science has progressed so far, along with society being allowed to break out of organised religion in day to day life, that people can view our world from a scientific viewpoint.

                    True love and peace is found inside each of us. We don't need a religious construct to frame it.

                    If you find religion a comfort blanket then who am I to judge, you should believe in whatever you want. But I feel teaching religion to children and forcing religious beliefs on a population to be truly abhorrent. And I practise what I believe, I refused to be a Godfather to my beautiful Niece as her parents were forcing their (I'll be honest, non-existent) beliefs onto their child. And I was brought up CoE and have pulled away from that Church since I was a teenager, for it's sins.

                    I find comfort in love, charity, kindness, poetry, nature, technology and works of art. Religion is blindness. Kindness is free.
                    As long as you can find it , that's all that matters.

                    I'm not a fan of organised or institutionalised religion myself as I feel it often serves as a hindrance to experiencing the divinity of life and living freely. The reason I hesitate to wash my hands with it completely and defend it when I see it under all-out attack is because, at its roots, it is still a force for wisdom. Yes, religions have been perverted and twisted by institutions in an effort to control and abuse and exploit and manipulate (just like the education system and capitalism and media) but, at their heart, the teachings of people like Jesus and Buddha and Meister Eckhart are a calling to love and charity. More than that, they took their wisdom and their love and their charity and became living embodiments of it. That's what set them apart. They showed us by their actions.

                    Originally posted by teddymeow View Post
                    I doubt it what with the forum being dead and all...
                    Can't argue with that.

                    Originally posted by Arashikage View Post
                    Someone has been watching too many episodes of American Gods

                    It sounds like you yearn for simpler times and somewhat struggle with how society and civilisation is progressing. It kind of reminds me of futsies from Judge Dredd, people who suffer from future shock and find it difficult to cope in a modern lifestyle. We’ve enjoyed years of peace and freedom compared to the dark times in history. Many people talk about “the good old days”, I genuinely think it’s better now than it’s ever been. Mainly because we are able to choose our own way of thinking rather than it be done for us. Rather than be hamstrung I think we’ve grown as a species, to be masters of our own destinies. I can’t wait to see what the future brings.
                    I've not seen American Gods or Judge Dredd. I don't yearn for the past. Only a better future. Regarding thinking for ourselves, I' doubt we we do that as often as we'd like. I think we're told what to think by our conditioning, by the education system, by adverts, by laws, by unseen social engineers, by political agenda, by the media, but that's another topic for another thread...


                    Originally posted by prinnysquad View Post
                    I’ve always thought that musically, the last twenty years have lacked any kind of distinctiveness in the creation of new styles or movements.

                    Even if you just take the preceding 40 years:
                    1960s: Rock n roll, pop
                    1970s: Prog Rock, Disco, Punk, Heavy Metal
                    1980s: New Romanticism, Hip Hop, Garage, House
                    1990s: Grunge, Alt Rock, Brit Pop, Boy bands

                    I’ve probably missed some other stuff from that list, and it’s undeniable that some movements were more about creativity than sales (and have since had their importance recognised). But 2000 onwards seems to have been a faceless void.
                    Yeah. That's what happens when business interferes.


                    Originally posted by kryss View Post

                    Put the 'shrooms down bro.
                    Never!

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                      #40
                      Originally posted by Superman Falls View Post
                      We haven't even gotten into the theory that love may simply be a biological byproduct thereby placing the emphasis squarely back on Science
                      You're a product of love. Of the love between your parents. You came into this world by your mother's 'love-push' when she ejected you from her body. Who willingly puts themselves through such agony if it isn't out of love?

                      I personally take it a step further and believe the very Universe itself is an expression of love. Where's my proof? I have none, I don't need proof to feel what I feel and think what I think.

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                        #41
                        It's a bit of a headscratcher discussion but I think it's because it's one that is very much informed by perspective.

                        For example, it no doubt feels like it's a positive point of view to be concerned about the decline in society and it moving away from a prior paradise state or mankind becoming self-absorbed or destructive of the planet. However there's the counter perspective that it's negative to take that view because it's can be seen as idealistic of the past. There has never been a paradise on earth, there never will be, life in the universe is the briefest and rarest of events and the whole time it's happening it's a brutal battle for survival. From human to animal every day hosts countless acts of cruelty, disease, suffering and death. In terms of time it was the briefest of moments since humans could expect only to live into their thirties, that plagues ran rampant across continents, that leaders lead the genocide of millions on a global scale. They'd only live till probably their twenties at best but you'd have to go back to early man to get to a time when large scale slaughter and resource destruction wasn't on mankinds agenda and that was a time of a tiny global population. That over 7 billion people exist in the current day with access to the facilities and medical knowledge they do, and that warfare has lessened and does so the more developed a nation becomes is a staggering feat of optimism and accomplishment above and beyond anything of the past which is why discussion in threads like this ends up being polarising because each argument frames the other as negative.

                        Climate Change is a funny one, the current second wind push has made it a big talking point even if a lot of it is preaching to the choir. Pushing countries that are already reducing their contributions to reduce their contributions rather than looking to the actual worst contributors that continue to rise dramatically unchallenged year on year. It's a bit like the plastic straw ban, campaigners can pat themselves on the back for a couple of years before looking on in horror as deforestation increases and recreates the 80's problems that led to the rise in plastic. Too much focus on quick fixes without due thought put to long term effects. Want air improved by forcing cars to rush into being electric only? Sure thing! But you also better like the sight of those extra Nuclear Power Plants that will be commissioned. Everything carries a price. The plus side is that none of this threatens the Earth, never did. The Earth will endure us all and reclaim any land in just a few short years as nature moves back in via animals or even just plant life.

                        That's all something of a detour but it kind of comes back around to the point I'm leading to. Life isn't easy and it never will be, there will always be problems. Modern life is no different and ultimately civilization will have to deal with its problems and larger threats such as climate change etc but if the aim of any generation is to leave the world in a better state for the one that follows it then that process hasn't stopped and life on this planet remains better now than any period before.

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                          #42
                          Originally posted by Zen Monkey View Post
                          As long as you can find it , that's all that matters.

                          I'm not a fan of organised or institutionalised religion myself as I feel it often serves as a hindrance to experiencing the divinity of life and living freely. The reason I hesitate to wash my hands with it completely and defend it when I see it under all-out attack is because, at its roots, it is still a force for wisdom. Yes, religions have been perverted and twisted by institutions in an effort to control and abuse and exploit and manipulate (just like the education system and capitalism and media) but, at their heart, the teachings of people like Jesus and Buddha and Meister Eckhart are a calling to love and charity. More than that, they took their wisdom and their love and their charity and became living embodiments of it. That's what set them apart. They showed us by their actions.
                          I disagree as even then, the teachings of these people leaded them to an organised religion with it's trappings of structured thinking and teachings that led people back to a non-existent god.

                          In all honesty, I feel you've been poisoned if you've aligned with a religion and taken under their wing. It takes some attempt to withdraw yourself from their spell. The enlightenment you often speak of here is just uttering teachings you've heard from others that lead back to a deity of their own choosing.

                          And despite you saying the religion has been twisted by others, I make the argument it was already perverted as the origins of these religions didn't teach love and charity as a single, noble cause; They teach love and charity framed around the cause of their own, made up religion. They didn't become an embodiment of their own teachings, they found salivation through a lord and then promote that lord, whether in a grand gesture or a subtle, underhanded promotional tool, such as charity.

                          I'm sorry if I'm sounding harsh towards you but I feel you're either acting coy and trying to promote religion through peace and love, or you're naive and feel all teachings about pace, love and charity are noble and should be championed. The former is frightening and should be discarded as an awful way to get a religious agenda through human kindness, the latter is something that is understandable as churches have morphed through the eras to appeal to new demographics, but something that should be called out. It's a Trojan horse that religion uses to appeal to kind and sweet people to recruit new subjects.

                          If you're not either of those then I'm unsure of your true purpose as you expel the notion of organised religion, yet you seemingly enjoy reading the teachings of multiple scholars of various religions around the world that promote peace and love. For me, you can't have it both ways, as you're mixing the sermons of religion into the fabric of human spirit and feel the 2 are aligned. If you do, that's subscribing to the notion of religion. That's totally fair and that means you're religious or spiritual, I get that.

                          But that's where I unsubscribe from your argument as you mention '...at its roots, it is still a force for wisdom' which I disagree with so strongly. It's not a force for wisdom, it actively works against all that is right with the world and pulls the wool over the eyes of humanity. I'm actively against such a notion that any religion is a force for good.

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                            #43
                            Originally posted by Zen Monkey View Post
                            You're a product of love. Of the love between your parents. You came into this world by your mother's 'love-push' when she ejected you from her body. Who willingly puts themselves through such agony if it isn't out of love?

                            I personally take it a step further and believe the very Universe itself is an expression of love. Where's my proof? I have none, I don't need proof to feel what I feel and think what I think.
                            You would love a film called "Intersteller".

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                              #44
                              Originally posted by kryss View Post
                              Well, the kid from the first Neverending Story Died of an overdose so...be careful ZM!

                              "You can't die from an overdose of nature."

                              Put the 'shrooms down bro.
                              Say Zen Monkey as he falls of the side of Snowden.

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                                #45
                                No more so than it has always been.

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