Avengers: Endgame (spoilers thread)

[Dogg Thang]

Thanos never told them the conditions of the deal, did he? I’d have to rewatch it but I don’t think they knew much beyond the fact that Gamora didn’t make it back. It would be a huge leap to figure out how the deal worked in that case.

Rogers can’t have lived his life out with the Peggy in our timeline because that would be Bill & Tedding it. What I’m saying is that yeah he did that but he lived in a whole other timeline, presumably the one where the stones were returned (or one of them - it’s not inconceivable that they’re essentially all different timelines).

We differ greatly on Thor and Hulk. I’m very happy with where they’re at. Just personal tastes.

[Arashikage]

It was my understanding in the film that only a significant event, like the removal of an Infinity Stone, could create another timeline and returning it would reset any divergence that occurs. This was represented with the scene with Banner and The Ancient One and the CG graphic showing their return and timelines going back to the main one. This means that anything that occurs as a result of their removal will surely be reset. Following this logic means that Loki couldn’t have escaped as the return of the stones would negate that reality. I have a feeling this will be ignored and allow his TV series to happen.

However it neatly explains how Steve was able to go to the past and live out his life in the main timeline. His being there didn’t warrant an upheaval as major as the loss of an Infinity Stone so didn’t create an alternate timeline. Remember that if he did travel from an alternate timeline to travel back then surely he would have materialised back in the platform as his point of origin. Also alternate Thanos’ arrival wouldn’t change the past as his was an alternate reality anyway, one that wouldn’t come to pass when the stones were returned. The main timeline was restored and Thanos met his fate at the hands of Thor. He even technically won as in his eyes he took to the grave knowledge that he had succeeded in his quest and did what he said that he was going to do. Everyone was a winner!

[Neon Ignition]

Nebula knows how the Soul Stone works, it's her who essentially feeds Quill the knowledge of what Thanos has had to do to Gamora that sets him off and costs them that first attempt at the glove.


Yeah, the Ancient One states that when an event is reset (the return of a Stone) the branching timeline ceases to exist so Rogers could only live a life in an alternate timeline if he held back on restoring all the events until he was an old man and then returned the last Stone to rejoin the main timeline, basically something he would never ever do. The alternative is that simply him choosing to live in the past created a branching timeline and then as an old man he travels forward a bit to rejoin the main timeline but that leaves a whole branching timeline in existence with different outcomes in play as he'd have to go back and undo that life to restore the main timeline. Each alternative breaks the character of Steve Rogers other than him having always been Peggy's previously unidentified husband. It's very messy but I'm more than happy to run with it because Cap deserves that ending

[Dogg Thang]

I need a rewatch because my understanding of all that was entirely different and I'm not going to swear to being right as there was a LOT in that movie. How I understood it was this:

1) You can't change your past. At all. This means no Bill & Tedding and all those movies were mentioned and discarded. So Steve can't live his life in the main timeline because that does change his past, Peggy's past and, really, probably a whole bunch of pasts.

2) So as a result, any change to the past you jump into now creates a new timeline. This does not affect your future because it's in your past. Again, this means Steve can't have been living out his life in the main timeline because that would mean that going into the past changed their future which Banner specifically says they can't do.

3) Bringing the stones back was not about resetting any time divergence at all. I'm almost certain that the Sorceress referred to her timeline as being separate. The purpose was that they need the stones for whatever balance in the universe she is trying to protect. It was not about making that the main timeline again - it was about protecting the completely separate timeline that had already been created by their presence. The idea being that, yeah, they could steal the stones and save one timeline but would doom the others if the stones weren't returned.

So if these things are true then yes there is a separate Loki who has escaped. There is a Steve Rogers somewhere who now knows that Bucky is alive (that alone would have created a massive change if they were Bill & Tedding it). And yeah, a second Steve Rogers that lived out his life with Peggy. But none of those things happened in the main timeline. Basically no Bill & Tedding, not because you can't do big shifts in time but because you can't do any at all.

But like I say, I'm not going to swear to all that. I need a rewatch to see if I understood it correctly but it mainly comes down to two conversations (one with Banner and one with the Sorceress) so I reckon we'd get clarity on a second go.

Now that last point about the stones brings up the issue I mentioned earlier - if the Sorceress felt the stones were essential, what happens now that they have been destroyed in the main timeline? Who knows.

Edit: Just thinking now... Captain America fought Captain America in the past. That's a pretty massive life-changing and time-altering change and there is no reason to think it would be undone when the stones were returned so all that has to be in separate timelines. Same with Thanos - he was never put back into the timeline. Time can't have been restored. That can't have been the idea because it wasn't possible to undo the changes that occurred.

[Dogg Thang]

Nebula knows how the Soul Stone works, it's her who essentially feeds Quill the knowledge of what Thanos has had to do to Gamora that sets him off and costs them that first attempt at the glove.

How? Gamora seemed to have more knowledge than Nebula on the subject and she clearly had no idea when they got to the planet in Infinity War.

Edit: All Nebula knew was that Gamora didn't return. Even that she was just figuring out from Thanos. She had no real knowledge. Here's the actual scene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDTvHzsoYWM

[Neon Ignition]

If we take it then as Steve travelled back in time and lived with Peggy in an alternative timeline the only question is how is he sat on that log at the end then? Each time they return from a travel in time they return to the station point they left from but Rogers doesn't come back via the machine as in all other trips

For Nebula I did a quick search and the scene quote for Nebula during the confrontation involving Stark etc with Thanos is:

[Tony and Peter are trying to get the gauntlet off of Thanos' hand while Mantis is controlling his mind] Peter Quill : Not so strong now, huh? Where's Gamora?
Thanos : My Gamora...
Peter Quill : Oh, bull****! Where is she?
Mantis : He is in anguish.
Peter Quill : Good.
Mantis : He... he mourns.
Drax : What does this MONSTER have to mourn?
Nebula : Gamora.
Peter Quill : [turns to Nebula in disbelief] What?
Nebula : He took her to Vormir. He came back with the Soul Stone... and she didn't.
Tony Stark : Okay, Quill, you gotta cool it right now. You understand? Don't. Don't engage, we almost got this off!
Peter Quill : Tell me she's lying.
[Thanos doesn't answer]
Peter Quill : ASSHOLE! Tell me you didn't do it!
Thanos : I... had... to.
Peter Quill : [choking up] No, you didn't... No, you didn't.
[starts punching Thanos]
Peter Quill : NO, YOU DIDN'T!

[Dogg Thang]

Yeah, I got the scene in my edit. So all that she knows, and she's clearly figuring it out in real time, is that Gamora didn't make it. You could read into it that Quill had some idea of what happened from his words (but we know he doesn't stick around to be able to tell anyone) but Gamora didn't know how the soul stone worked and nothing that played out in previous scenes with Nebula and Gamora implies that either of them knew. So I don't think there is a reason to think the Avengers knew how the stone deal worked.

With Rogers, keep in mind that he had to do a LOT of jumping through time in order to return the stones. He basically had a whole movie's worth of Sam from Quantum Leap going on and lived out an entire life in the process. And if the way time works in the movie is how I think it works, it then gets very messy because it's not two timelines - it's a whole bunch of them (like I wondered about earlier - how do they even get back to the changed timeline because, from their present, those events still didn't happen?). So there are a whole bunch of reasons Steve may not have made it back to that platform and a whole bunch of alternative ways that he could have made it to that bench. It's a gap but it's one that leaves many possibilities. And if you don't go with one of those, then it's just a plot hole. But I didn't see it that way on my watch. I had no idea it was even an issue until I saw this thread because to me it just made sense that he was doing Sam from Quantum Leap for a while and who knows what timeline we were seeing at the very end with Peggy.

[Neon Ignition]

I wonder if it would work if you take the view that there's the main timeline and then a branching one created where Steve travels back to live the rest of his life with Peggy and that's the MCU timeline we as the viewer have been following all this time and not the original where she was with someone else

[Dogg Thang]

I wonder if it would work if you take the view that there's the main timeline and then a branching one created where Steve travels back to live the rest of his life with Peggy and that's the MCU timeline we as the viewer have been following all this time and not the original where she was with someone else

That’s an interesting question. Partly depends on whether it’s the same timeline that Thanos left early from. If it is, then no because we saw the later events with Thanos happen. I’m going to say no but it definitely brings up some possibilities and more questions.

Edit: Actually yes. It would make little sense that you can’t change your past but can endlessly dick about with other people’s. So that means lots of timelines. It also means that the Steve in the bench could have been sent from another timeline under pretty much the exact in circumstances because their timeline isn’t immune from said dicking.

[Arashikage]

Hah I think folks might be over complicating that happens. It’s feasible that returning the stones negates all the timelines that occurred from the removal of the stones. The film states that the future can’t be changed so therefore all the events leading up to that point still happen. Loki had the Space stone so he might have been able to escape into the prime timeline? Who knows, the Tesseract certainly was able to transport Red Skull to Vormir. It would explain how he could skip realities and appear in the main timeline. It’s a stretch but could work with the mechanics the film offers.

Steve’s remaining in the past could happen if he leaves a very minimal footprint and doesn’t change anything major. If anyone could respect the timeline then it would be him, thus further cementing his worthiness.

[Dogg Thang]

Steve’s remaining in the past could happen if he leaves a very minimal footprint and doesn’t change anything major. If anyone could respect the timeline then it would be him, thus further cementing his worthiness.

The problem with this is that a minimal footprint is still a footprint and so the past has been changed. It would seem impossible to live for decades and have zero impact on anything at all. So a small change means he has changed the past and the next problem is that being there at all means he could at any point do something big to change the past but we've been told you can't change the past.

And...

It’s feasible that returning the stones negates all the timelines that occurred from the removal of the stones.

Returning the stones only returns the stones. It doesn't undo what they did to get them. So it still leaves a Captain America who, during the first Avengers movie, fought another Captain America and found out then that Bucky is still alive. And that's just one change of many. But again, we've been told you can't change the past. Both of these things would be Bill & Tedding, which we're specifically told you can't do.

I think Bannner's explanation is even simpler. Your past is locked. You can change the future where you are in it but it's always moving forward and won't affect the past that already existed to get you there. And that means different timelines. But SF's question exposes some of the fun in that because it means that essentially you can still Bill & Ted stuff but it's across a whole bunch of different timelines, which is how there is now a younger Gamora in the present or there is a future out there with Vision alive because Thanos wasn't there to kill him. So you can't Bill & Ted things for yourself but you can do it for others.

Here's a general MCU question - they were very clear on the years of the time periods. So does that place Infinity War in 2018? So is the main Marvel timeline now set five years ahead of real time?

[Neon Ignition]

It's a very tricky question that last one, Marvel have thoroughly messed up the MCU timeline during the course of Phase 3 and constantly retcon or contradict themselves for little reason. Most fan sites with timelines get really obvious things wrong like placing Black Panther in 2018 even though the film explicitly takes place days after the events of Civil War in 2016 or Guardians Vol2 taking place in 2017 even though, again, it's actually set in 2014 only months after the events of the original. Marvel has played coy about its timeline but broadly it does align that Infinity War occurs in 2018 inclusive of the opening sections of Endgame meaning the MCU now takes place in 2023

[Mayhem]

In my mind, the whole thing with Cap/Rogers seems relatively straightforward. He may have travelled into the past, but it's still his future. The events that we see "in the past" always happened, we were just not aware of them at the time. So the Ancient One trusts Strange because Banner told her years earlier that he would come to her and have the Time stone. It's actually like the Terminator, we as the audience only realise that Reese is John Connor's father because we are outside of the events, he has no idea that is how John was conceived at the point when he goes back from 202x. Although Reese went into the past, he is living his future at the same time as everyone else is.

Which is what Rogers is doing here, he's on the main timeline strand post returning the stones, just unlike almost everyone else, he doesn't have to worry about bumping into himself because that other self is buried at sea for 70 years. Yes, that does mean keeping a low profile and not attracting attention, but from the way that MCU is playing it, that is what already happened. That happened between 1945 and 2010, just we didn't know until now. He knows when he left 2023 so can easily schedule returning to that point when he's lived through it naturally.

As for Loki, he disappeared with the Space stone before Stark/Cap stole it from 1970 (if you consider time progressing as a line for each person, them going to 1970 happened after Loki vanished) so my thought is, that time strand still exists following the return of the Infinity Stones, and thus the TV series is going to be based on a Loki from that point onwards, who has no knowledge of anything that happened post Avengers 1.

Because at this point stones had gone to different time periods and created strands, it's also why I think Nebula was able to shoot younger self and not disppear. It wasn't a grandfather, erm grandmother paradox. The two Nebulas were on two different strands at this point, and not connected. I think heh.

Is the 2014 Gamora still alive? My thought is no, Stark clicking his fingers probably wished for Thanos and his army to dissolve, and that probably included that Gamora. Certainly there was no shot of her after kicking Quill's arse on them meeting again.

At the end, the Stark funeral scene, it goes around several connected groups of MCU folks. We get to the Pyms, and Wakanda, and then we get to a teenage boy and seemingly two older people (woman and man) standing at the back near the house. Then we go to Captain Marvel and Nick Fury. Now the kid I believe is the kid from Ironman 3 now grown up, any idea who the man and woman were? They were somewhat far from the camera too, so couldn't really make them out easily.

[Dogg Thang]

In my mind, the whole thing with Cap/Rogers seems relatively straightforward. He may have travelled into the past, but it's still his future. The events that we see "in the past" always happened, we were just not aware of them at the time. So the Ancient One trusts Strange because Banner told her years earlier that he would come to her and have the Time stone.

No, this doesn't seem right. Firstly, she already knew exactly when Strange would get involved with her before Banner gave her any info so she is operating completely outside of this. She didn't learn any of that from Banner. More importantly, huge events simply can't have always happened - such as Thanos travelling into the future, because then he is never there to begin with and that creates a paradox which is exactly why we have that Banner speech to begin with. I'm pretty sure they even mention Terminator as a specific example of what it's not, along with BttF, Bill & Ted and others.

It isn't like usual time travel movies. That's made very clear. And your Nebula example shows that. It can't always have happened that Nebula died in the past because she is in the future. There is no reason to think they are all different strands but Rogers at the end would be on the same strand - why would he be the only exception?

[Mayhem]

Yeah, I think you're right re Strange, the Ancient One did seem to know about him, and queried why he gave up the stone willingly.

There is no reason to think they are all different strands but Rogers at the end would be on the same strand - why would he be the only exception?

He returns all the stones to where they came from (albeit that must have been REAL messy returning the Aether back into Jane!), meaning there's only one time strand now remaining as discussed by Banner and the Ancient One. He then he uses Pym particles to jump to 194x whatever to be with Peggy. If there's only one time strand left, the one all the other heroes have been travelling on as well, then how is he not still on the same strand?