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Is Western Civilisation in Decline?

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    Is Western Civilisation in Decline?

    I suspect it might be. I think that, generally speaking, western civilisation has produced its best artists and musicians and poets. Where once western society produced Beethoven, Bach, Mozart, Van Gogh, Rembrandt, Dickens, Shakespeare, Blake, Milton, Wordsworth - artists whose works are deep meditations on the human condition and continue to this day to communicate something about the ecstasy and agony of existence, in contrast the popular arts of today are produced by corporations and designed only to make money. Whether it's the glut of pop bands who don't play any instruments, don't write their own songs, and don't even sound in tune without autotune software, or countless identical superhero movies, I can't help but feel the best is over.

    And it runs much deeper than just the arts. I think we're living in a spiritual void; that, having fallen out of love with the old gods but having no new gods to replace them with, we've taken to worshiping money and materialism and celebrity and the self in their stead. I sometimes feel we're living in the century of the self; an idea I suspect was propogated and encouraged to take root in our minds quite deliberately by advertising companies. 'My hopes', 'my dreams', 'my wants', 'me, me, me'. 'Who cares if what I want is detrimental for the community and harmful to the environment. I want it and that's what matters'. We've lost our reverence for something bigger than us, be it to God or Nature or community. Our newfound purposelessness and meaninglessness and fear of boredom (which is an incredibly valuable feeling and a source of great creativity) has given birth to narcissism and an obsession with technology and entertainment which has cut off our connection to the Earth and with it our respect. Consequently we watch the planet being raped and poisoned and pillaged in order to make toys and gimmicks that flash and beep and distract us and it doesn't trouble us one bit. Consumerism is the new religion. Fantasy is the new reality. Conformity is the new social system. Numbness is our new collective consciousness

    If this sounds depressing, it isn't. It's just the natural process of things. Everything has its end. The ancient Chinese civilisation, the Babylonian civilisation, the Ancient Greek civilisation, the Roman civilisation, they all met their end. Western civilisation will too. Nothing last forever. The old must die to make way for the new. I just wonder whether this is the beginning of the end? It feels like it to me sometimes.

    What do you think?

    #2
    This thread's gonna be a corker. You'll see.

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      #3
      This makes me think of the stuff I read recently about "bicameralism", or the idea that humans didn't think and reason in the past quite the way we do in the modern era. I'm not sure if it's pseudoscience, but it explains some of the stuff I used to wonder about, like how people could've done certain things, chief among them being fight in all those battles and wars with only the idea that faith would save them, in an era where even a cut or a graze getting a mild infection could be a life-threatening injury.

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        #4
        There's different ways of tackling this I feel depending on how encompassing of different peoples beliefs you want to be but I'll do it purely from a personal standpoint:

        Answer: Western Civilization is the best it's ever been

        Purely taking the OP as a bullet point inspiration so I don't ramble:

        - Musical and Written Artists: Hundreds of years from now there will be songs and artists and writers that are well thought of from today just as we look back at those from the past. It won't be the Beyoncé's of the current crop but they'll get plucked out by future experts just as Shakespeare was etc, you're average commoner of past eras couldn't care less about those works, it's the later generations who mark out the greats and we live in an era of unprecedented output. Quality works are out there, it's just identifying them.

        - New Gods: I know it sounds dismissive but we have a new God and it's name is Science. Unlike past generations the average person is immensely more educated than those who came before and that will continue. Science can't offer all the answers but it does offer facts, something religion does not. The more we discover about the world, the universe and life the more religious presence in cultures dies off. It's not hard to look at the religious bodies of the world to see why that's not necessarily a bad thing. We don't believe in the spirit of the Earth as a general population because we know it doesn't have one. We don't believe in the sanctity of the church on the scale we once did because we know the Church is an unbelievably corrupt, immoral and abuse defendingly abhorrent institution. As a species we create many problems for the planet and the life it holds but it will be knowledge that creates the solutions, not faith or belief and when it comes to knowledge mankind has never had a greater era for both information and the access to it - attributable to western civilization.

        Technology: There's certainly a vanity to modern western civilization but every development comes with its downsides. The opposite to western technological advancement is that it's allowed countless diseases and illnesses to be wiped out or controlled, quality of life to improve at an astronomical pace, international governments to commerce and discuss with ease bringing about an unprecedented reduction in warfare in an incredibly short timeframe. Modern civilization is currently very focused on addressing the inequalities of those based on gender, disability, race, sexual orientation etc but that's largely a snowball that started around 30-40 years ago. To those who are making those fights it will feel like an endless struggle but the advancement in those causes and the attitudes of others has come along an astounding amount in those decades. A few decades may seem like a long time but in reality it's nothing, it pales compared to the hundreds upon hundreds of years no progress was made at all, and the technological age has allowed the organisation and coordination of that change to happen at that pace.

        Consumerism: Hasn't really changed, it's been the same since one Caveman realised he could get more of one thing by trading another thing. The key difference is our efficiency at it and the population size involved. It will always exist and it isn't inherently a bad thing, it just needs to be kept in check better so people aren't screwed over as much.

        Fantasy and Conformity: Again, old as man. Religion thrives off these things and has been a cornerstone for mankind for millennia. In terms of media nothing has changed. It's a common thing to look back at cinematic greats of past decades and roll our eyes at the six-eight superhero films that come out per year but they're nothing new. The supposed golden eras saw decades of 6 or so WWII or Western set movies release per week, the modern era pales compared to that and inclusive of the volume and availability of TV content it's another era today where realistically no other era rivals today.


        I don't mean the above as dismissive, more glass half full. Looking at the way the world and world views were just 80 years ago when you're best position was to be a white, straight male and even then you're best outlook was to get sent off to the frontlines to be gunned down Western Civilization is just getting started. The issue is that bad news sells, our media outlets focus on negative developments and where they don't exist they invent them. The likes of Trump, alt-right etc are fading. It feels like they're rising but they're not - society simply left them unchecked for too long because it stupidly thought it was more socially advanced than it was.

        Change takes generations. Telling people that racism is wrong for example doesn't stop racism, it drives it underground, it's just telling racists to keep it to themselves. They'll still teach their children their values etc. Western civilization thought for decades this worked but all it allowed was for a bubble of resentment to build up. The key is educating children, each generation building on the next so that those beliefs and views are killed at the root but we still don't make enough effort on that front.

        There's plenty progress to be made but in short, things are better than ever and they will improve further.

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          #5
          Originally posted by Superman Falls View Post
          There's plenty progress to be made but in short, things are better than ever and they will improve further.
          Yep. This is where I'm at. I feel we have a LONG way to go but if you look at the advancements of Western society over the last several hundred years, it's an uphill curve. There are blips and it's by no means a smooth curve but that's the way it goes. And we're still on that journey - people will look back and reassess so much of what we do now, just as SF says about music and so on and it applies to all our societal views. That's normal. As he says, real change takes generations but it does happen. You only have to walk to work without seeing heads on pikes to know that.

          I feel like it's too easy to glorify the past. Life absolutely sucked for most people in the past. And most people were rubbish too. Over a long enough timeline, you'll find a whole bunch of musical prodigies, sure. But we got Bowie and, as SF says, some we can't even predict will stand up in future generations. Hadaway might have been our Handel and we won't know.

          And SF is right yet again on the bad news being reported. But it's important to open your eyes to all the good in the world, including but not limited to the Western world. Not just focus on the bad or what we haven't got compared with some rose-tinted view of ages gone by but to actually focus on what we have. On what we've done. Yes, it comes with a whole lot of huge mistakes and we have a long, long way to go but people are great and we have amazing things. Compare your posting on the internet and walking your dogs to struggling for survival in the mud if you're lucky to have made it to adulthood. We're doing just fine when you consider that.

          Can Western society collapse? Yep. Of course it can. And maybe it is starting right now. Only future historians will know. But I think it's important to look at all the good we have now without glorifying what is actually a pretty horrifying past for the most part.

          Edit: I'm editing because this ties into the same thing Zen Monkey has posted in the Puzzle thread. To quote an old master "never his mind on where he was". You're looking to the past, to other countries. And it distracts you from what is right in front of you. You have embraced the "grass is always greener" concept and applied it not just to geography but to time itself.
          Last edited by Dogg Thang; 26-04-2019, 14:08.

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            #6
            Science is the new God? Man, that breaks my heart. Do you honestly believe science can help you tackle your ego? That it can help you confront your selfishness and jealousy and fears? That it can provide you with the moral courage to explore the dark recesses of your mind? Science is something people do. A product of man. I'm not belittling it. I love having a fridge and a cooker and being able to go the dentist when I have a toothache and to hear music on the radio. I really do. But that cannot replace God (or Nature with a capital N, or the Tao, or Buddha Nature or the infinite or the ineffable or the intangible or whatever other name you wish to call it, whether common or unknown, personal or institutionalised) because God - and when I use the word God, I am not talking about a bearded man in the sky, I'm talking about the energy that gives birth to all things, I won't even bother trying to describe it because to do so would only purchases further illusions, you cannot see it or or grasp it or hear it but you can sometimes know it in deep silence and attentiveness, it's Love with a capital L, and that's bigger than science.

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              #7
              Originally posted by Zen Monkey View Post
              A product of man.
              Aw man, I've got something really tough to break to you about those other gods...

              We still have love, dude. That's not going anywhere and it's not dependent on any concept of god.

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                #8
                But is it Love with a capital L? If that sounds too abstract a question, allow me to elaborate. We all have compassion (love) for a kicked kitten. But how about compassion (love) for the man kicking the kitten? I think most people have empathy (love) for the millions of Jews slaughtered by the Nazis. But do they have empathy (love) for the Nazis too? Do they recognise the same fear and hatred in themselves when they would happily see violence committed against the violent? This is where religion has its place. It can help us recognise and confront the ugliness in ourselves.

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                  #9
                  Yeah, you're losing me loving Nazis. Not joining your cult until you sort that one out. But your Love didn't stop anyone committing the worst atrocities in times gone by so I'm not convinced we're getting it wrong now compared with then. I think it's worth considering wiping away the clouds in front of you that are all about what you think things were like or what it's like in other places so that you can finally see some of the good around you.

                  But not Nazis.

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                    #10

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                      #11
                      ... hate to break the taboo again but without religion or faith... those type of sympathies do exist, they're just less discussed because of what's considered socially acceptable.

                      It's bring it around to judging the world based on personal individual beliefs rather than what's is quantifiable and known. Science isn't any more a manmade construct than faith, religion or love are. Arguably it's less so.

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                        #12
                        Originally posted by Dogg Thang View Post
                        Yeah, you're losing me loving Nazis. Not joining your cult until you sort that one out. But your Love didn't stop anyone committing the worst atrocities in times gone by so I'm not convinced we're getting it wrong now compared with then. I think it's worth considering wiping away the clouds in front of you that are all about what you think things were like or what it's like in other places so that you can finally see some of the good around you.

                        But not Nazis.
                        That's my point. Everyone loves the things that are in accord with their own personal values, judgements and preconceptions; and everyone hates the things they feel are a threat to themselves and their values; whether rats or cockroaches or Nazis. That ain't love. That's fear. The same fear behind all violence, be it Nazis killing Jews or Europeans killing Nazis.

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                          #13
                          The same as the fear of narcissism and an obsession with technology and entertainment which has cut off our connection to the Earth and with it our respect? The fear of the planet being raped and poisoned and pillaged in order to make toys and gimmicks that flash and beep and distract us? Fear of consumerism? Where is your Love now?!

                          We all make judgements. And people in times gone by made judgements too. This isn't new, it's not part of a decline of society, not by a long shot, and it's not going away either. And I don't think it's a bad thing either.

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                            #14
                            Originally posted by Superman Falls View Post
                            ... hate to break the taboo again but without religion or faith... those type of sympathies do exist, they're just less discussed because of what's considered socially acceptable.

                            It's bring it around to judging the world based on personal individual beliefs rather than what's is quantifiable and known. Science isn't any more a manmade construct than faith, religion or love are. Arguably it's less so.
                            Love ain't no construct. Look inside your heart. It's a feeling. Do you have parents, kids, brothers n sisters, family, friends, pets? That feeling you have for them, how you put their needs ahead of yours, often at the cost of your own happiness, that ain't no construct. Nobody taught that to you. It exists. It more real than the you you think you are, than the me I think I am.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Dogg Thang View Post
                              The same as the fear of narcissism and an obsession with technology and entertainment which has cut off our connection to the Earth and with it our respect? The fear of the planet being raped and poisoned and pillaged in order to make toys and gimmicks that flash and beep and distract us? Fear of consumerism? Where is your Love now?!

                              We all make judgements. And people in times gone by made judgements too. This isn't new, it's not part of a decline of society, not by a long shot, and it's not going away either. And I don't think it's a bad thing either.
                              To love the planet is to love all things and, ultimately, have the welfare of all life in mind. We can live without mobile phones and movies and what not, but try living without fresh air, clean water and food to eat. How can you grow produce when there are no insects to pollinate them, no rich soil to provide nutrients?

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