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Europe IV: The Final Hour

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    It's taking it to another area of discussion but if everyone at the lower end of the pay brackets had the government ensure they received an acceptable higher wage would it change anything? I've kind of always assumed all would happen is companies would fund those wages by increasing costs and prices thereby immediately recreating the same issue ie. a 10% pay rise is only good if your cost of living doesn't rise 10%+ also. In other words, is it more the entire economic model that needs some sort of dramatic change instead?

    Comment


      I think the thing that surprised me about the striking McDonald's workers wanting £15 an hour and a Labour government, was the reactions of "They don't deserve to be paid that because nurses aren't paid that much!".

      Just the standard knee-jerk anti-Labour reaction of it all being piffle, they're only "flipping burgers" or "serves them right for working for McDonald's".

      I think the exploitation of all workers needs to be looked at and, tying in with what Neon says, some sort of protection against automating every job.

      "The average wage of a UK McDonald’s crew member earns an hourly wage of £7.63, while managers earn £16,485. This falls short of the real living wage of £9.30 an hour, which rises to £10.75 in London."

      Imagine being paid less than it costs to park...



      Comment


        Originally posted by Neon Ignition View Post
        is it more the entire economic model that needs some sort of dramatic change instead?
        I would say yes but that doesn't mean you don't look at tackling low wages in the short term because the long term need is exactly that - long term. So you're right but it doesn't negate the need to improve things right now. And in terms of companies passing those costs on, they will do exactly what they are allowed to get away with, be it not paying workers, not paying taxes and so on. So yes again but that's why even more restrictions need to be put in place. Right now, all of this is pretty critical. Decades ago people would roll their eyes and say the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. Well that happened and here we are. We need to do what we can right now to restore more balance in there.

        But absolutely - the entire economic model we work under is likely going to completely fail. Partly because of what has already happened and the imbalance that has reached ridiculous proportions and partly due to what is currently happening with jobs being lost due to tech and so on. The model we work under is pretty much an industrial age model that has been twisted and manipulated since the '80s (probably earlier but the '80s on a large scale) and seems like it's not really fit for purpose. Many economists said at the time that the 2008 crash was not part of the usual cycle - it was the beginning of the end of some of our systems. I have to be honest - when I read the articles, I didn't always get the details mostly because the level of manipulation is so deep now (when it comes to things like selling debt and betting on crashes etc.) but I can believe the top line idea - the systems that we've grown aren't designed for the world we've got and the one we've got coming.

        Comment


          My Nurses comment wasn't a knee jerk reaction. I just think Nurses probably deserve to earn a higher salary than the average worker in the fast food industry. I have no idea about salaries in general across the country either but I know what my daughter earned at McDonalds and it struck me that asking for £15Ph seemed to be asking for a 100% pay increase and I'm curious how that figure was settled on (and if it's even correct! I read it on Twitter most likely).
          [MENTION=10111]QualityChimp[/MENTION] 's Parking examples are amusing of course but it's easy to find the most expensive example of something and say imagine not even being able to afford it. I mean, imagine your annual salary being so low that you have to work more than a year to buy a fridge:


          This one costs $14,000

          Comment


            Originally posted by Brad View Post
            My Nurses comment wasn't a knee jerk reaction. I just think Nurses probably deserve to earn a higher salary than the average worker in the fast food industry.
            I would generally agree. But again, use this as a motivator for paying nurses more, not as an objection when a worker asks for better pay who barely (or not all) makes a living wage working for one of the hugest fast food chains on the planet.

            And QC's parking example is hardly some Ferrari luxury car park as far as I can see. It's just an example. I know parking here in Dublin is crazy expensive. I think we could agree that people should earn more than it costs to park in an NCP car park but it's not really the specific of the car park - it's rising expenses and living costs when wages for those on the poverty line have barely gone up in years, if at all.

            Arguments that are used to keep low paid workers on as little as possible can feel really mean-spirited in an age where we have billionaires who could solve poverty the world over with what they earn as an individual. So yes, pay nurses more. Pay fast food workers more too.

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              [MENTION=3144]Dogg Thang[/MENTION] Yes, turns out we're in full agreement; I'm just not as good at wordz as wot yoo iz.

              Comment


                So apparently Labour have just promised free Broadband for all, by a plan to renationalise BT?

                Not quite sure how I feel about that. I dislike privatisation of the NHS and I want to renationalise rail - but those are services in which privatisation is a problem. Broadband works pretty well, because it's more of a free market.

                Saw it on the BBC as breaking news.

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                  Rolling coverage of the latest economic and financial news, including reaction to Labour’s pledge to bring BT under partial state ownership if elected


                  Labour will today make the pledge for free broadband access for all formal and as part of that McDonnell has been explaining that the part nationalisation of BT would only apply to Openreach. Labour would form an agreement with other providers (presumably the free access speeds/data caps etc would be minimal meaning existing rival services remain viable alternatives). The business market hasn't responded well to the idea citing the reduction in competition as bad for investors and consumers, also that it will cost tax payers much more than the $20bn Labour intends. BT shares fell 2% this morning.




                  Farage has attacked the Tories saying they're cold calling Brexit Party members such as Ann Widdecombe and offering them senior roles or peerages to betray the Brexit Party. Farage says it shows the extent to which the system has become a corrupt.




                  Interviewed this morning Boris Johnson was challenged over his motto of 'Let's Get Brexit Done' with the interviewer finally stating the obvious - that any pledge to wrap it up soon is a lie. Johnson flounced on answering the point and simply fell back on his pre-scripted soundbites about the January deadline.

                  He was then asked about promises to increase NHS spending which has been pledged at £20.5bn. Johnson retorted the real number is £34bn, he was then asked about how only 272 extra GP's have been recruited rather than the promised 5,000 by Jeremy Hunt. Johnson dodged that one too by saying Labour wrecked the economy.

                  The interviewer then said she wanted to get a better 'feel' for Johnson as a person so asked him about his family life. Johnson didn't like the question an instead pointlessly responded by saying he wanted every child to unleash their full potential.

                  Comment


                    Interviewer: What's your Favourite colour?

                    Boris: Dog.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by Asura View Post
                      So apparently Labour have just promised free Broadband for all, by a plan to renationalise BT?

                      Not quite sure how I feel about that. I dislike privatisation of the NHS and I want to renationalise rail - but those are services in which privatisation is a problem. Broadband works pretty well, because it's more of a free market.

                      Saw it on the BBC as breaking news.
                      Works pretty well for some. Maybe even most, but remote areas still have very poor infrastructure and fast broadband arrives only when companies feel they can make a big enough profit. It's not seen as a necessity like Water and electricity for example. Maybe this is the angle Labour are coming at it from? I confess to not having read the full story.

                      Comment


                        at the thread title change:
                        "Thread: Europe IV: Labour Pledges Free Pornhub Access for All!"

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Brad View Post
                          Works pretty well for some. Maybe even most, but remote areas still have very poor infrastructure and fast broadband arrives only when companies feel they can make a big enough profit. It's not seen as a necessity like Water and electricity for example. Maybe this is the angle Labour are coming at it from? I confess to not having read the full story.
                          It's about as likely to happen as a trade deal taking 12 months to complete.

                          There's no way it's costed properly. There are 27.2 million households in the UK (2017 figures), Labour are claiming the annual operating costs are £230m a year.

                          That means broadband should be costing us 70p a month.
                          Last edited by MartyG; 15-11-2019, 11:15.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Zaki View Post
                            Interviewer: What's your Favourite colour?

                            Boris: Dog.
                            Imagine trying to play Trivial Pursuits with Tories.

                            "Q: How many centimetres are in a metre?"
                            "Well, since Labour were in power, there are a lot less!"
                            "Descartes once said "cogito ergo sum", and that, as a principle is what we need to drive forward this game."
                            "We need to assess the fundamental principles of whether it is a wedge or a cheese."

                            Comment


                              It's the old school card of promising what they can't afford but at least they get credit for something that will no doubt have annoyed the hell out of Johnson because the Tories are limited in what they can offer because they're so tied to fiscal responsibility whereas affordable or not the free broadband promise is simple on paper to sell to voters and they will absolutely love it.

                              This doesn't in anyway reflect the way voting will go as the Tories are just bizarrely perpetually popular but so far in the campaign it feels to me like:

                              Brexit Party: Have exposed themselves very quickly for the weak protest group they are. They're not a political party, they have no manifesto for anything but nagging about hard Brexit, Farage has no will to get into a position of responsibility either, the whole thing is just another UKIP racists haven again.

                              SNP: Have nothing really new to add to the debate, they still have probably the best outlook on things yet the least impact. The biggest change for them in this GE is that they're clearly willing this time to make a deal with the devil to avoid Brexit and get an independence referendum. As much as they waffle on about Labour I 100% think they'd agree a coalition with them as long as it secured a second indy ref within 5 years rather than the 1 they're currently punting for. It's all about there simply being one and given the Tories approach it's better for them to go later than not at all.

                              Lib Dems: To be honest, so far, I get Swinson's hardline 'I can be PM' approach being an attempt to make the party look like serious contenders but she really needs to get to grips with the cold reality that she isn't going to win the election and as time goes on it just makes her look increasingly ignorant and egotistical. As much as they deride Labour's lack of pro-remain credentials they need to wake themselves up to the reality that the Lib Dems role in this will at best be to make Remain more likely via coalition, not to win and revoke and continuing to sound like they'd rather have Brexit happen than work with the reality of a second ref makes them a dead vote for many. That's before again considering that they broadly don't exist for many as soon as discussion moves on from Brexit.

                              Labour: To be honest, there's a ton to dislike about Labour and their money tree planning but being back in campaign mode is a reminder as to how they did so well in 2017. They do go all out and it's not hard to see why they appeal more during these conditions. They're doing an alright job of distracting from the Brexit issue which is the key strength they need but I'm very doubtful at the moment that they'll be abel to keep avoiding addressing common complaints. Till then though I expect they'll try to maintain campaigning like they're Oprah




                              Conservatives: I won't lie, regardless of their poll leads, I think they've been staggeringly poor so far largely down to two things. The first is that they blatantly entered campaign mode on day one of Johnson being in power with the promises of replacing cut police etc and it means that when the actual campaign trail begins they've got zero ammunition left. They just sound exhausted, every pledge is out pledged by rival parties and they have nothing new to add except a litany of new lies about their rivals. The second is Johnson himself, for better or worse I honestly thought he'd be much better at it. Able to push his oafish charm over substance but instead we have even more of him looking like a coward in avoiding most scrutiny based interview etc situations, failing to shake his opponents etc. Even if the Tories Brexit plans were amazing, so far if they were to win they wouldn't deserve it on merit, really poor performance so far.

                              Comment




                                Corbyn says the fibre broadband that UK citizens would receive wouldn't be a slow bas service, it would be a high standard connection to a level that currently only 8-10% of the country receives. Rural and low connection areas would be serviced first, then towns, finally urban environments.

                                He also says that closing tax loopholes would cover the cost of the pledge with the green transformation fund covering initial costs. They also say that every campaign pledge they are making has been fully costed.

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