The end of an era?

[Guest]

If Sega are much better off now its because they were losing cash on the Dreamcast at a rate that would make even Microsoft's XBox division blush. This is clearly not the case with Nintendo and the Gamecube; its well documented that they are currently making either a profit or at worst only a small loss per machine.

The only way it would make sense for Nintendo to go third party was if they could expect vastly increased sales for any PS2 version of a Mario/Zelda/Whatever game to that on their own hardware, where they don't have to pay license fees. I don't think this is the case, as Nintendo fans are usually fans enough to pay for the whole experience of Nintendo hardware and software. Third parties may not be that happy with the Cube sales figures, but small license fees are better than no license fees.

[Sarkster]

I personally think it would be a sad, sad loss if Ninty were to stop making consoles. Snowman makes a very valid point that Nintendo wouldnt produce the same quality of software if they were not making it on their own hardware. Producing games for many diffrent formats would only dilute their ability.

Regarding the comment on the "old faithful" Nintendo franchises being "old hat" I can only wholehreartedly disagree with this comment. I suppose at 26 I fall into one of the sites older demographics, but I can still remember the day when gameplay was paramount, and a game didnt need a "cool" topic to be worth playing. It is my opinion that gameplay is the one element that Nintendo still unerringly try in instill into their games. Sometimes they hit the mark, sometimes they miss, but at least they try. Would Metroid Prime be cooler for you if the masterchief was running around instead of Samus Aran?

At the end of the day, IP can only take a game so far, and while it does bring that reassuring air of familarity to a game (which I accept could be construed as monotony by some), when you strip away the graphics, CG intros, bump-mapped belt buckles and such, all youre really left with is the gameplay, and that is something Nintendo always have, and continue to deliver in spades!

Sorry for going slightly off topic

[The Sheriff of Nottingham]

Apologies in advance if I'm reiterating points that have been expressed in other threads on this topic.

Oh and before I start I'd better point out that I own a PS2 and DC so I'm not a Ninty fanboy. Well, perhaps a bit

In the home console market Nintendo have lost market position over the last 5-10 years, to the point where they've gone from market leader to vying for third place. What's more the new leader (Sony) has established its domination by tapping into a market which never bought consoles previously. Playstation and PS2 have sold in huge numbers to people who have never owned and would never consider owning a Nintendo machine. Indeed one of the masterstrokes of Sony's marketing has been to position the Playstation brand as an aspirational/lifestyle choice, a cool gadget far removed from "toy" consoles and "childish" games like Mario. The Sony badge helps enormously in this as it positions the PS alongside other "adult" devices like TVs, hi-fis, Walkmans (Walkmen?) etc. We ("hardcore" gamers, uuurrrghhh) might say "it's all about the games" but to the vast majority, it's simply not.

With the benefit of hindsight it strikes me that Nintendo never stood a chance of challenging the PS or PS2 for the top spot. And for the same reasons, their next console is going to have to settle for second or third place in the sales war too.

The question is, does this matter? I was happy to buy a Gamecube knowing that it would never be as popular as the PS2 but safe in the knowledge that it would host plenty of first-party Nintendo titles. I bought an N64 years ago with much the same attitude. Neither console has disappointed (far from it) despite both being popularly perceived as "failures". So long as Nintendo continue to produce games that I want to buy, I don't care how many units they've sold. My enjoyment of Metroid Prime and Zelda won't be affected in the slightest by whether the GC is outselling the Xbox.

It all boils down to Nintendo's strategy and business plan. I hope that they have recognised that they will never challenge Sony for the "popular choice" crown. I hope they have a sales plan which allows them to sell fewer units than PS2, to sell fewer games than PS2, but still turn a healthy profit which in turn will allow them to do the same thing again in the next round. Everything they've done or said in the last few years implies that this is the case. In which case, I'll be happy.

The difference with the Dreamcast was that Sega saw the huge market Sony had opened up, and built its strategy around selling a next-gen console to every Playstation owner. They spent a fortune on expensive but ill-advised marketing (Arsenal still play in Dreamcast sponsored shirts) but the sales were never (with hindsight) going to reach the levels they needed to turn a profit. Nintendo don't appear to be in anything like this situation.

The end of an era? I'm not holding my breath.

Edit: typo

[Tokuda]

And if you are talking about quality of output, I dont think anyone can dispute that Sega have fallen from grace massively. OK, so they have released a couple of above average titles in the last twelve months (PDO, beach spikers) but the majority have been lazy ports, or just plain rubbish games (gungrave, sega gt, shinobi etc). Where have the imaginative games like JSR, Samba de amigo, Space channel 5, Rez, crazy taxi, PSO been??

And again I must disagree with you on the quality of software side. Panzer is hardly simply above average- it is simply one of the best games I have played over the last few years. Pure triple-A.

Shinobi is not plain rubbish either- it is a very arcadey game with a very old school vibe- just depends on what kind of game floats your boat. Gungrave similarly is not quite as bad as some have made it out to be.

Also, Initial D- that game is pure sex! A complete revolution in arcade racing and easily the best arcade racer and most adored racer since Daytona. Once it gets a home port, it will sell ****loads. Of course anyone who isn`t an arcade goer won`t know too much of this.

And Kempy, you are forgetting quite possibly the best game on the PS2 and the game that offers undoubtedly the deepest fighting system of any game- VF4 Evo.- which is the biggest arcade game in Japan for literally years. This game alone has caused a mini revolution in the Japanese arcade scene.

Simply saying the quality of Segas software has gone down is not only inaccurate, but it depends on what kinds of games you like. If anything, I prefer my Sega gaming now than to any other time for a long time.

[KempStar]

Oops- yes I should have included VF4 in there! I havent played evo but VF4 is incredible, i love that game.

Again, I agree with you on PDO, its a fantastic game. But nothing like one of the best games of the last few years imo.

Shinobi is a very poor game compared to what it should be. I guess its quite fun to play initially, but ultimately its incredibly dull and devoid of imagination. Compare this to super shinobi and the original game.... Sega are capable of so much more- surely everyone would agree with that?. And as for gungrave, it is indefensible. If it wasnt for the nice presentation, it would have NOTHING going for it imo.

Looking forward to playing initial d, I didnt include that as i havent played it, and i was talking about sega the software developer, as opposed to arcade machines.

Like you say, it is horses for courses. Sega still make great games, but now they also make an awful lot of poor ones. And that has never been the case before, imo.

[Concept]

Uh-Huh.

Sega, last two years:

Panzer Dragoon Orta
Beach Spikers
Rez
Space Channel 5 2
Toe Jam & Earl III
Headhunter
Out Trigger
Sonic Adventure 2
Crazy Taxi 2
Crazy Taxi 3
House Of The Dead 3
Super Monkey Ball
Super Monkey Ball 2
Jet Set Radio Future
Gun Valkyrie
VF 4
VF 4 Evo (Arcade)
Phantasy Star Online Episode I/II
Initial D
Shinobi
Shenmue II
F-Zero (Arcade)

Ok, not all of them are classics, but more than a good few are. Simple fact is, most devcos would kill to have had that diversity and overall range during a difficult past couple of years.

[KempStar]

Panzer Dragoon Orta
Beach Spikers
Toe Jam & Earl III
Crazy Taxi 3
House Of The Dead 3
Super Monkey Ball
Super Monkey Ball 2
Jet Set Radio Future
Gun Valkyrie
VF 4 Evo
Shinobi


Concept, we have been talking about the effect on segas output since they became software only. Ive pruned your list- taken away the games released before the transition, arcade games, and non-released games ( )

I was actually specifically talking about the last 12 months, as i mentioned in my post. And you also reminded me of a game id forgotten all about- super monkey ball 2, truly a lesson in how not to construct a sequel. Can I really be the only one that thinks sega have gone downhill?

[Saurian]

Can I really be the only one that thinks sega have gone downhill?

Yeah man

Sega are still smacking it for games - we in the UK dont get to see what Sega are doing because we only get a small fraction of it. In central London we have ONE! EVO machine while in Tokyo it's running tings. How can you disregard arcade games when that is what Sega is all about.

Initial D has done a hell of a lot for the arcades here you know! - never in months have I seen people making plans to hook-up g out and play a game. Initial D card betting is the cause of much SKUFF!

[Sidez]

The only recent Sega disappointment I can remember is Sonic Adventure 2, everything else has been brilliant. Easily the best and most consistent developer around for me. If you don't like Sega now then I doubt you ever did like them. Their philsophy on game development remains the same.

[Madbury]

Can I really be the only one that thinks sega have gone downhill?

Yeah man

Sega are still smacking it for games - we in the UK dont get to see what Sega are doing because we only get a small fraction of it. In central London we have ONE! EVO machine while in Tokyo it's running tings. How can you disregard arcade games when that is what Sega is all about.

Initial D has done a hell of a lot for the arcades here you know! - never in months have I seen people making plans to hook-up g out and play a game. Initial D card betting is the cause of much SKUFF!

I Initial D and I sega too.

I will become an Akina downhill master... I realised I was playing the game all wrong when I watched the anime. It's all about the drift.

Whhhaaat Perfect Inertial Drift...

[KempStar]

The only recent Sega disappointment I can remember is Sonic Adventure 2, everything else has been brilliant. Easily the best and most consistent developer around for me. If you don't like Sega now then I doubt you ever did like them. Their philsophy on game development remains the same.

Actually sidez, i love sega, and always have done (see my avatar). I have bought lots of sega games in the past 12-18 months, most of those have been quickly sold on. I just dont remember a time where I have been so consistently dissapointed by them. Clearly I am in a minority here, I didnt think that would be the case.

Saurian: the reason I disregard arcade games- this thread was initially about how Nintendo might change if they were to go software only. It makes sense to look at how sega have changed since going software only- these changes dont affect the arcade arm of sega so its not relevant to the discussion.

[Lyris]

Actually sidez, i love sega, and always have done (see my avatar). I have bought lots of sega games in the past 12-18 months, most of those have been quickly sold on. I just dont remember a time where I have been so consistently dissapointed by them. Clearly I am in a minority here, I didnt think that would be the case.

I seem to be too then. I think the output quality has definitely dropped... Jet Set Radio Future in particular I found disappointing.