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Putting the Woo in HollyWOOd

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    Putting the Woo in HollyWOOd

    When?, Where?, How? And Why?, Did it all go wrong for John Woo in Hollywood?

    Was watching the made-for-TV 'John Woo's Black Jack' on TV last night and it got me a thinking about how Mr Woo failed in the US?
    Back in the early 90s circa 'The Killer' and 'Hard Boiled', cult and critical acclaim came thick and fast and JW was pretty much herealded by all and sundry as the future of action cinema and much was expected of his American debut, which turned out to be, erm, 'Hard Target'. 'Broken Arrow' followed, neither anywhere near what was expected.

    Teething trouble maybe? A little faith was repayed with 'Face/Off' where things seemed to gel a lot better, things where looking up.. Sadly it wasnt to be, turkeys followed turkeys like turkeys to the slaughter with the wham! Bam! Triple whammy of 'Mission Impossible 2', 'Wind Talkers' and 'Paycheck', none of which set the world on fire, sure some of his output have been ok films, but nowhere near what was expected.
    How has this happend to such an obviously talented director?
    Last edited by SuperDanX; 05-03-2008, 15:28.

    #2
    Coke & Hoes!

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      #3
      Good that he's returned to china to make Battle of Red Cliff!

      and for the record I kinda like hard target....and broken arrow.......but didn't like face off at all

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        #4
        Yeah, not saying everything he made was rubbish, i like Paycheck ffs! (Stop laughing)
        Its just they could have been made by anyone more or less, where as The Killer and Hard Boiled could only ever be Woo films.
        I suspect he wasnt as free as he may have hoped when it came to expressing his vision, that coupled with the moral tide turning against 'Violent' movies, and the studios desire to get films obviously sutible for adults only passed by the censor with a lower rating crippled him some what. oh and JCVD.

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          #5
          it all went wrong with face off and all that ghay face touching that seemed to happen every 5 mins. Man I hated that stuff, it was well annoying.

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            #6
            I think, ultimately, he was a bit of a one note film maker - and I say that as a huge fan, I even saw Hard Boiled in London's Chinatown back in the day.

            "Intellectually", if you can use that word in relation to Woo, his best was The Killer, which is very much a Scorsese style film.

            Obviously Woo is known for his heroic gunplay, but just how far can he take it? The end shootout in A Better Tomorrow Part 2 is sublime, though much of the preceeding film is, sorry to say this, pretty crap. And in that film, you get to see that while he's a master of gun action, he can't shoot vehicular action without making it look like an 80's TV show.

            When he tried to step away from the gunplay into other areas like comedy, he just lacked the chops, though Chow Yun Fat is always enjoyable to watch.

            The excess was reached with Hard Boiled. That end shoot out is just amazing, both artistically and technically. But in Hong Kong he was given free reign. Had he have been in Hollywood in the Arnie era, things would have been different. But you can't get away with that kind of violent gunshot nowadays. I'd like to think there was a good film somewhere in Hard Target, it had a few cool moments, but Broken Arrow was just awful.

            I really enjoy Face/Off, though it's not aged well the action is pretty tight and it's Woo's only half decent Hollywood film.

            MI2 is just lobotomised, all the gun hits have been edited out, and without them, the film feels flat.

            I think another problem is Woo has done all he can - he started 2 handed gunplay in the original A Better Tomorrow, and each film after took it to new levels in one way or another. BT2 is already the pinnacle for that kind of action, The Killer adds emotion to the mix, and HB has the action last half the film. There's only so many ways a guy can get away with "slow motion reflection in sunglasses while doves drift by" type shots. He's exhausted every cool way there is to reload a gun.

            Just be happy he made some quality films, and got to Hollywood with enough fanfare to pocket a few healthy paychecks (no pun intended, just please don't mention that fkcuing awful film!). He's influenced all of the action directors around these days. So that should be enough.

            Would still be nice to see him get it all together for one last kick arse film. Maybe now he's back in Hong Kong, that will happen for him. Maybe he'll be revitalised, maybe he'll have total freedom again.

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              #7
              I agree The Killer is his very best and all his other films are the same thing, this is not however a bad thing.
              And the Matrix burried him by ripping off all his ideas for the stupid multiplex crowd that thought the "Brothers" invented it all

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                #8
                Originally posted by SuperDanX View Post
                When?, Where?, How? And Why?, Did it all go wrong for John Woo in Hollywood?

                JW was pretty much herealded by all and sundry as the future of action cinema and much was expected of his American debut, which turned out to be, erm, 'Hard Target'.
                Hard Target is fookin ACE!! **** hot action, great dialogue, super cool villains and a mullet!!! All the right ingredients for a classic!

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                  #9
                  He still has the rights for the Metroid movie....

                  DON'T WOO IT!

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                    #10
                    Great post there chain. I almost completly agree with everything you said. Nice one.

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                      #11
                      Worst director ever.

                      I actually thought Windtalkers should have been hot shots 3 after watching it. NEver laughed so hard at a film. It actually looked like an episode of the A-team.
                      and face off? come on... that was a massive turd of a film.

                      I've never seen the appeal with him at all.

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                        #12
                        In a rush, scanned some of the posts-

                        1. A Better Tomorrow 2- this film ended up a mess because Woo didn't get the final cut, I think. Tsiu Hark was supposedly the culprit.

                        Also, the film was made as a favour to a friend more than anything, which would explain a lot-not that that in any way excuses it's quality.

                        I still love it for various reasons, though I can only watch it from the point Chow Yun Fat enters.

                        2. Did anyone mention Bullet In The Head? Sorry, I'll rescan the thread later, but looking at that film I don't think he is one trick pony. Concerning that point, many artists/musicians etc etc return to the same themes time and time again.

                        3. He did much better work with less money. Sometimes people achieve greatness with limited resources but can never achieve that level again when money is thrown at them. I guess it's a question of drive and inspiration.

                        Also, when your back is to the wall you might pull a rabbit out of a hat, so to speak.

                        When he made A Better Tomorrow I think both he and Chow Yun Fat had been more or less written off by the HK film business.

                        4. He's working under the Hollywood studio system now, it's kind of like going from an independent record label to a major- more money, much less freedom creatively (unless you're a Spielsberg).


                        5. I wondered if he has ties to Scamentology in that he really likes working with Travolta and Cruise. Since he is from a Christian background I'm thinking that isn't likely, but stranger things have happened.

                        Although links with that group would surely help his career?

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                          #13
                          A LOT of rappers seem to be fond of mentioning their 'SCIENTIFIC' powers, I seriously asked myself many a times whether they were part of a cult. They started in New York I think.

                          Rza is a good friend of Tarantino, who rips off Hong Kong classics. Also John Woo sent a letter to Rza from Wu Tang over a decade ago.

                          Rza calls Tarantino QT-sounds like 'cutie'? Bit odd...............


                          Hmmmmmmmmm


                          Scientologists tried to recruit me at college in 1994 and all the places I worked at had some, although they hid it very well.


                          Peace to Xenu and big-ups to Tommy Cruise and Travolta, who are definitely hetrosexual.


                          I was told scamentology practices occult beliefs.


                          My cousin, was indoctrinated at a store called Nostalgia and Comics and Shadowland in Birmingham, where he met Alan Moore.


                          Take care lads

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                            #14
                            Sequel to Hard Boiled in the works, looseley based on Stranglehold, apparantly it's going to be a re-write but keep some of the action sequences of the game, no mention of Chow being in it although it would be a bit pointless if he wasn't, also word is John Woo won't be directing it or writing it, which to me defeats the whole purpose of a sequel to Hard Boiled.

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