The Sega Saturn games no one should let pass by?

[Asura]

Not that I know much about HR in general, because I don't, but is the games industry different somehow? In previous jobs where I've been an employee, there's always been a clause in my contract saying that anything I create/design/invent, etc. as part of my job automatically belongs to the employer and I waive all rights to it. Is it not the same at game devs? In the modern era it would be an immense ballache of a task if you had to track down all the hundreds of people involved to ask them individually if you wanted to re-release a modern game at some point in the future.

It is a ballache when it happens, and in theory, yes - and much of a game will be "owned" by a company.

However, there are areas where this comes into question. For example, many games use off-the-shelf engines which might have specific terms of use. They might use SDKs or plugins for things like audio and physics, which they don't wholly own. In Japan especially, voice artists may have complicated contract terms.

Games made now tend to deal with all of these up-front, because companies know that digital can mean forever, or at least, a very long time, so they write up their contracts to take this into account - where possible. Studios are less likely, if the option is on the cards, to take a short-term agreement than maybe they were 10 years ago.

Take, for example, 1080 Snowboarding. The clothes the characters wear were made by Tommy Hilfiger, and the boards were by Lamar. I think the music was licensed too. Nintendo might own these lock, stock and barrel, like their contract may have given them carte blanche to do whatever they wanted with these re: future releases, but not every developer has that kind of foresight.

For a specific, real-world example, the writer's strike that ran a ramrod through the run of Battlestar Galactica was about something very similar, where loads of shows were making their way to the (upcoming) streaming platforms and their writers were on strike, because their contracts specified they were paid for TV airings and "videogram sales" (sales of the shows/movies on physical media) and the media companies claimed, therefore, they didn't have to pay the writers royalties for showings on Netflix.

[endo]

So if you're trying to re-release those games in 2020, you seriously often have to start by tracking down people in the credits and asking them. Even if you do this, some naturally have no coherent memories of the development, plus memory is fallible and they might be wrong. Hell, it's been ~23 years; it's morbid, but some of those people are going to be dead!

That means titles like Virtua Fighter 2 and Daytona USA, which have relatively recent releases on PSN, are probably going to be as straightforward as you're going to get (very few games, by the Saturn's time, are absolutely free of complications, whereas if you go back to the C64, a fair few games could be easier because they literally might've all been made by ~4 salaried employees, who were all in the same room!).

Not that I know much about HR in general, because I don't, but is the games industry different somehow? In previous jobs where I've been an employee, there's always been a clause in my contract saying that anything I create/design/invent, etc. as part of my job automatically belongs to the employer and I waive all rights to it. Is it not the same at game devs? In the modern era it would be an immense ballache of a task if you had to track down all the hundreds of people involved to ask them individually if you wanted to re-release a modern game at some point in the future.

[cutmymilk]

Mansion of Hidden Butterflies.

Edit: It's actually called Mansion of Hidden Souls!

[jamesy]

Sega Saturn passed me by. I played Sega Rally a bit at my mates. Which was cool. However, I went full PlayStation and never looked back.

Recently I have discovered that the Saturn has a library of great shmups which I'm slowly checking out. I also like the look of Guardian Heroes.

I'm interested to know what you guys here think are some great Saturn games that need to be checked out?

Daytona USA. Yea you can get newer arcade perfect ports these days but i'd argue the Saturn one on a pad still controls better despite the frame rate.

[Asura]

I think even if you sorted the architecture, the game line-up would be a problem. You’ve got licensing issues varying from major to minor on the in-house games (Daytona USA, Die Hard Arcade, Sega Rally, Sega Touring Car, Fighting Vipers). Then you’ll have controller arguments, people insisting that Nights and Sega Rally need the 3D pad. Virtua Cop 1&2 and House of the Dead would also be unlikely due to the lightgun situation.

Yeah; there's a bit to unpack here. As someone who has dealt with this kind of thing in the past, generally speaking, if games have had re-releases on digital platforms, that usually means they're "clean" in terms of licensing. It doesn't mean they're "good to go", for example, if you wanted to bring back one of the OutRun 2 games you'd need to deal with Ferrari, but the company in question at least knows who to speak to and what terms are going to need to be arranged - like someone will have gone to the pains of documenting them for later reference.

The problem with titles of the Saturn era (and before) is that the industry was going through big changes back then. Publishers still didn't see games as perennial sellers, because they weren't. The creators of Tomb Raider likely gave zero thought to whether anyone would still buy it in 2019.

So if you're trying to re-release those games in 2020, you seriously often have to start by tracking down people in the credits and asking them. Even if you do this, some naturally have no coherent memories of the development, plus memory is fallible and they might be wrong. Hell, it's been ~23 years; it's morbid, but some of those people are going to be dead!

That means titles like Virtua Fighter 2 and Daytona USA, which have relatively recent releases on PSN, are probably going to be as straightforward as you're going to get (very few games, by the Saturn's time, are absolutely free of complications, whereas if you go back to the C64, a fair few games could be easier because they literally might've all been made by ~4 salaried employees, who were all in the same room!).

Then they’d be looking at third-party stuff, but the rights for some of the big money stuff like the shooters are all over the place now so that could be a nightmare. Some have been ported elsewhere and are still up for sale. There’d inevitably be some huge title everyone wants that just can’t be obtained, but they’ll have included some title nobody in the world cares about. Something like Tunnel B1.

I'm convinced that this is what happened with the PS1 classic. The selection of games is a bizarre scattershot melee of PS1 titles, with absolutely no consistent theme between them. They're not the best, not the earliest, in some cases not even considered particularly good games (seriously, no-one wants to play Toshinden in 2019 apart from weirdos like me!).

I can only assume they considered various themes, then as titles proved unavailable/problematic, they just started swapping them out for anything they could, and some titles will have been easier than others, first on a technical level, then on a licensing level.

It's like if you're licensing, say, Formula 1 teams. You email them all; Red Bull, Mercedes...

Ferrari take weeks to get back to you, and even when they do, they're uncooperative. Their licensing guy is talking to you on a mobile phone; he's on connecting flights and sitting in Schipol Airport, having just spent two weeks working with photographing supermodels cavorting over the new car model, and on his way to meet with Miss Italy at Goodwood Festival of Speed to talk about whether they can get her to wear a Ferrari-branded line of Cartier diamond jewellery. You're trying to ask him to license something like a mug, or a baseball cap, or even a videogame... He'll get back to you. Eventually.

Meanwhile the guy at Marussia is just happy to be invited to the party. He gets back to you IMMEDIATELY.

In this example, Marussia is Toshinden and Ferrari are, I dunno, Tobal. You end up taking Toshinden while Tobal's doing something in Dubai he'll later be shamed for on social media.

Main problem though is that I don’t think there’s much of a casual scene for Saturn stuff, so most of the buyers would be Saturn experts who aren’t just going to play Virtua Fighter for an hour on Christmas morning and then probably never touch it again. This sort would be less forgiving about things like input lag and glitches, especially once the YouTube lot get hold of them and do thumbnails with them holding it and making an expression like they’ve just witnessed a row of ducklings being run over by a lorry.

This would cause an inevitable backlash, a load of one-star reviews, then they’d be clearing them out at £20 for people to use as a cheap emulation boxes or a source of nice USB pads. Don’t do it, Sega! It’s not worth it!

Ultimately this is what would kill it.

[Hirst]

I think even if you sorted the architecture, the game line-up would be a problem. You’ve got licensing issues varying from major to minor on the in-house games (Daytona USA, Die Hard Arcade, Sega Rally, Sega Touring Car, Fighting Vipers). Then you’ll have controller arguments, people insisting that Nights and Sega Rally need the 3D pad. Virtua Cop 1&2 and House of the Dead would also be unlikely due to the lightgun situation.

Then they’d be looking at third-party stuff, but the rights for some of the big money stuff like the shooters are all over the place now so that could be a nightmare. Some have been ported elsewhere and are still up for sale. There’d inevitably be some huge title everyone wants that just can’t be obtained, but they’ll have included some title nobody in the world cares about. Something like Tunnel B1.

Main problem though is that I don’t think there’s much of a casual scene for Saturn stuff, so most of the buyers would be Saturn experts who aren’t just going to play Virtua Fighter for an hour on Christmas morning and then probably never touch it again. This sort would be less forgiving about things like input lag and glitches, especially once the YouTube lot get hold of them and do thumbnails with them holding it and making an expression like they’ve just witnessed a row of ducklings being run over by a lorry.

This would cause an inevitable backlash, a load of one-star reviews, then they’d be clearing them out at £20 for people to use as a cheap emulation boxes or a source of nice USB pads. Don’t do it, Sega! It’s not worth it!

[Asura]

Do you reckon a Sega Saturn mini is on the cards?

I honestly would be shocked if we got one. Firstly because emulation of Saturn titles is still hit and miss; moreso than the Megadrive, which whilst the MD emulation may not always please purists, it's been fine for the bulk of games and most people to be happy since ~2000. Sega Saturn emu, unless it has come on pretty recently, isn't really up to scratch due to the machine's unusual hardware...

Though admittedly, if M2 were doing it, with their priveleged access to resources within Sega, they might be able to crack it.

I think it would be a niche product. The PSMini has shown how these things aren't really bought to play; they're bought to have or as novelty Xmas gifts - a slot they fill really well, if I'm honest. I'm not sure the Saturn holds a place in the heart of enough people to really justify the time and expense.

That being said... I always say this in these discussions but we got an Xbox 360 version of Guardian Heroes, SNK are back, the various NeoGeo mini-consoles exist, Capcom's Aliens Vs. Predator has found its way out of licensing jail... In truth, in 2020, anything can happen in gaming.

[Hirst]

I don't think it'll ever happen, just because the emulation is still so far behind.

[hudson]

Do you reckon a Sega Saturn mini is on the cards?

[Asura]

I find that with the Saturn quite a lot of the great games have been ported to other consoles, like the 360.

I really wish Guardian Heroes would get moved over to PC, but I think Microsoft had a hand in it, so it probably never will.

[Jaz]

I find that with the Saturn quite a lot of the great games have been ported to other consoles, like the 360. Awesome stuff like Dragon Force is still exclusive though (at least in English).

[wakka]

I'll do a few suggestions broken down by genre with my thoughts.

Fighting
Virtua Fighter series - There's four games, 1/Remix/2/Kids. VF2 is worth anyone owning, even if you're not into fighting games much, because it's a real technical powerhouse. The others are probably optional, but there's every chance you could get the whole lot and have change from a tenner so it's not much of a gamble. Remix is basically a redone version of 1 with more textures which most people prefer, though I prefer 1 as it looks more true to the arcade game (to my eyes). VF Kids is a bit daft.
Fighting Vipers - Sega offered this as an alternative to VF, it's a lot more pick-up-and-play than VF which can feel overly technical. I like both in their own way. Get the Japanese version so you can play as Pepsi Man.
Cyber-Troopers: Virtual-On - One-on-one giant robot fighting game that can be optionally played using the twin sticks accessory, some people insist you require it but honestly I never did and I played it just fine.
Also worth checking - Fighters Megamix, Last Bronx, Outlaws of the Lost Dynasty
Also not worth checking - FIST

Beat-em-up
Three Dirty Dwarves - It's kind of half beat-em-up and sidescrolling platformer, you switch between three characters. Really nice artwork and was very underrated at the time but goes for good money now to the point where I can't really afford to buy it (I borrowed it off a mate back in the day). Lots of cool effects in it. Recommended!
Die Hard Arcade - Port of the arcade game, really goofy and daft and I love it. It wasn't the most beautiful game even back in the day, but it's great fun to play, especially two player. Very brief as you'd expect!

Action
Mass Destruction - Tank game that has been championed by me and TA for absolutely years. It's a bit like the "Strike" series but more focused on all-out action rather than strategy, you just go round blowing the hell out of everything and filling the screen with beautiful explosions. The Saturn one is better than the PS1 version but either are good really, just play it!
Saturn Bomberman - One of the best multiplayer games on the system and a really great entry into the series generally, I'm not particularly bothered about the single player but I had a lot of fun one summer playing this with my mates. With multi-taps you can do up to 10 players which is mental.
Crimewave - Weapons-based vehicle game playing from a moving sort-of isometric view. I think this game is really cool with great graphics, but it does struggle with the FPS quite a lot. It's a shame because I think it has a lot to offer. I still like it anyway.
Also look at: Burning Rangers, Panzer Dragoon 1/2, Elevator Action Returns

Driving/Racing
Sega Rally Championship - Absolutely holds up to this day, even better if you've got the 3D pad (still fun without). The Saturn version has the best handling of any version including the arcade in my opinion. Fantastic soundtrack too, I play it in the car to reduce my commuting times.
The Need for Speed - Nothing like the rest of the series, the first one is a semi-serious thing in the vein of the early Test Drive games. The meat of the game is racing point-to-point courses on roads full of traffic, often being pursued by police! It's really fun and the Saturn version is slightly better than the PS1 version. Also, if you're a massive nerd of this game, look at Overdrivin GT-R which is the exact same game just with Nissans (and no traffic).
OutRun - Available as a standalone Japanese release or part of Sega Ages Vol 1 (with Space Harrier and Afterburner II), I feel this is the definitive home port as later versions they butcher the car sprite into something else out of fear for licensing which is a bit like changing Sonic or Mario into some other guy. Be warned if you're getting the standalone one - for some reason it doesn't work on some newer versions of the Saturn.
Also look at: Chase H.Q. and S.C.I, Touge King The Spirits 2, Manx TT Superbike

RPG
Dark Savior - Action RPG related to Landstalker with an isometric view but it's a mixture of 3D and sprites. It's more based around puzzles/platforming than actual fights (which aren't that often really). It has different story paths depending on a few things so there's a lot of replay value if you want to see it all. The main baddie is a monster called Bilal, not to be confused with this other guy called Bilal who I did a temporary warehouse job with in the early 2000s. It's a fantastic game, with the exception of the mine cart section which is one of the worst things of any game ever (not exaggerating).
Story of Thor 2 - Another action-orientated one which feels like an extensive graphical update to the first one which was on the Mega Drive. Very nice artwork as you go running around clobbering things, good soundtrack too. I only have vague memories of it as it's been years since I played it, would like to pick it up again.
Virtual Hydlide - This choice is completely indefensible but I have a weird love for this awful game. You're a guy running around a very choppy environment with white fog everywhere. Hideously ugly digitised sprites and the guy you control walks round like he's crapped himself (seriously). Music is warbly and weird and a bit nonsensical. But it has some kind of bizarre charm that I can't explain, even to myself. At least play it until you get the Fairy Armour, that's a real moment.

Platform
Clockwork Knight 1/2 - They're basically one game divided into two, it's an early 2.5D platformer which is pretty easy but I still think it's good fun. Second one is better than the first.
Keio Flying Squadron 2 - Absolutely beautiful platformer that I could never, ever afford to buy now and desperately tried to get back in the day to no avail, ringing all the mail order places and what-not to no avail. Not sure I've even seen a real copy. However, I had that demo that was on some disc everyone had and I so badly wanted it. Still do.

Sports
Athlete Kings (Decathlete) - Track and Field type game, a really good arcade port that looks excellent and is full of goofy characters. I'm not hugely into this style of game but I'm fond of this one.
Winter Heat - Same as the above, but with winter events! If you like one you'll like the other.
Steep Slope Sliders - Snowboarding game somewhat surprisingly developed by Cave. If you like Coolboarders, then you should definitely try this. I actually prefer it!
Also look at: International Victory Goal (just for the soundtrack)

Rail Shooters
Virtua Cop 1/2 - If you've got the means to play with a lightgun (and arguably even if you don't), these are a must buy. They're not a perfect port of the arcade, but they're easily good enough.
The House of the Dead - It's a bit rough-looking nowadays but it still plays very well.
Also avoid like hell: Death Crimson

Misc
Nights Into Dreams - Slightly divisive but clearly quite carefully-created game where you fly around collecting orbs. I don't love it, but I like it. It's better with the 3D pad. If you like it, also get Christmas Nights, which is basically a glorified demo with lots of extra content.
Baku Baku Animal - Shape-based puzzle with bloody weird music. I'm rubbish at these types of games, but I still like playing them now and again.
Also consider: Blast Chamber, Sonic Jam, Virtua Fighter CG Portrait Series: Shun Di

Hope this helps, my only other advice as somebody who is getting back into the Saturn is that Japanese titles go for buttons compared to their PAL counterparts and are much more likely to be in decent condition just due to the awful PAL boxes. It's also worth having that Action Replay cartridge which consolidates region unlocking, 1M/4M RAM carts and save game backup into one item. It's (incredibly) still readily available as a new product, rumour is that they're still in production somewhere.

Top post.

[Nu-Eclipse]

Pretty much everything Capcom made for it.

...okay, maybe not Final Fight Revenge!

[Hirst]

I'll do a few suggestions broken down by genre with my thoughts.

Fighting
Virtua Fighter series - There's four games, 1/Remix/2/Kids. VF2 is worth anyone owning, even if you're not into fighting games much, because it's a real technical powerhouse. The others are probably optional, but there's every chance you could get the whole lot and have change from a tenner so it's not much of a gamble. Remix is basically a redone version of 1 with more textures which most people prefer, though I prefer 1 as it looks more true to the arcade game (to my eyes). VF Kids is a bit daft.
Fighting Vipers - Sega offered this as an alternative to VF, it's a lot more pick-up-and-play than VF which can feel overly technical. I like both in their own way. Get the Japanese version so you can play as Pepsi Man.
Cyber-Troopers: Virtual-On - One-on-one giant robot fighting game that can be optionally played using the twin sticks accessory, some people insist you require it but honestly I never did and I played it just fine.
Also worth checking - Fighters Megamix, Last Bronx, Outlaws of the Lost Dynasty
Also not worth checking - FIST

Beat-em-up
Three Dirty Dwarves - It's kind of half beat-em-up and sidescrolling platformer, you switch between three characters. Really nice artwork and was very underrated at the time but goes for good money now to the point where I can't really afford to buy it (I borrowed it off a mate back in the day). Lots of cool effects in it. Recommended!
Die Hard Arcade - Port of the arcade game, really goofy and daft and I love it. It wasn't the most beautiful game even back in the day, but it's great fun to play, especially two player. Very brief as you'd expect!

Action
Mass Destruction - Tank game that has been championed by me and TA for absolutely years. It's a bit like the "Strike" series but more focused on all-out action rather than strategy, you just go round blowing the hell out of everything and filling the screen with beautiful explosions. The Saturn one is better than the PS1 version but either are good really, just play it!
Saturn Bomberman - One of the best multiplayer games on the system and a really great entry into the series generally, I'm not particularly bothered about the single player but I had a lot of fun one summer playing this with my mates. With multi-taps you can do up to 10 players which is mental.
Crimewave - Weapons-based vehicle game playing from a moving sort-of isometric view. I think this game is really cool with great graphics, but it does struggle with the FPS quite a lot. It's a shame because I think it has a lot to offer. I still like it anyway.
Also look at: Burning Rangers, Panzer Dragoon 1/2, Elevator Action Returns

Driving/Racing
Sega Rally Championship - Absolutely holds up to this day, even better if you've got the 3D pad (still fun without). The Saturn version has the best handling of any version including the arcade in my opinion. Fantastic soundtrack too, I play it in the car to reduce my commuting times.
The Need for Speed - Nothing like the rest of the series, the first one is a semi-serious thing in the vein of the early Test Drive games. The meat of the game is racing point-to-point courses on roads full of traffic, often being pursued by police! It's really fun and the Saturn version is slightly better than the PS1 version. Also, if you're a massive nerd of this game, look at Overdrivin GT-R which is the exact same game just with Nissans (and no traffic).
OutRun - Available as a standalone Japanese release or part of Sega Ages Vol 1 (with Space Harrier and Afterburner II), I feel this is the definitive home port as later versions they butcher the car sprite into something else out of fear for licensing which is a bit like changing Sonic or Mario into some other guy. Be warned if you're getting the standalone one - for some reason it doesn't work on some newer versions of the Saturn.
Also look at: Chase H.Q. and S.C.I, Touge King The Spirits 2, Manx TT Superbike

RPG
Dark Savior - Action RPG related to Landstalker with an isometric view but it's a mixture of 3D and sprites. It's more based around puzzles/platforming than actual fights (which aren't that often really). It has different story paths depending on a few things so there's a lot of replay value if you want to see it all. The main baddie is a monster called Bilal, not to be confused with this other guy called Bilal who I did a temporary warehouse job with in the early 2000s. It's a fantastic game, with the exception of the mine cart section which is one of the worst things of any game ever (not exaggerating).
Story of Thor 2 - Another action-orientated one which feels like an extensive graphical update to the first one which was on the Mega Drive. Very nice artwork as you go running around clobbering things, good soundtrack too. I only have vague memories of it as it's been years since I played it, would like to pick it up again.
Virtual Hydlide - This choice is completely indefensible but I have a weird love for this awful game. You're a guy running around a very choppy environment with white fog everywhere. Hideously ugly digitised sprites and the guy you control walks round like he's crapped himself (seriously). Music is warbly and weird and a bit nonsensical. But it has some kind of bizarre charm that I can't explain, even to myself. At least play it until you get the Fairy Armour, that's a real moment.

Platform
Clockwork Knight 1/2 - They're basically one game divided into two, it's an early 2.5D platformer which is pretty easy but I still think it's good fun. Second one is better than the first.
Keio Flying Squadron 2 - Absolutely beautiful platformer that I could never, ever afford to buy now and desperately tried to get back in the day to no avail, ringing all the mail order places and what-not to no avail. Not sure I've even seen a real copy. However, I had that demo that was on some disc everyone had and I so badly wanted it. Still do.

Sports
Athlete Kings (Decathlete) - Track and Field type game, a really good arcade port that looks excellent and is full of goofy characters. I'm not hugely into this style of game but I'm fond of this one.
Winter Heat - Same as the above, but with winter events! If you like one you'll like the other.
Steep Slope Sliders - Snowboarding game somewhat surprisingly developed by Cave. If you like Coolboarders, then you should definitely try this. I actually prefer it!
Also look at: International Victory Goal (just for the soundtrack)

Rail Shooters
Virtua Cop 1/2 - If you've got the means to play with a lightgun (and arguably even if you don't), these are a must buy. They're not a perfect port of the arcade, but they're easily good enough.
The House of the Dead - It's a bit rough-looking nowadays but it still plays very well.
Also avoid like hell: Death Crimson

Misc
Nights Into Dreams - Slightly divisive but clearly quite carefully-created game where you fly around collecting orbs. I don't love it, but I like it. It's better with the 3D pad. If you like it, also get Christmas Nights, which is basically a glorified demo with lots of extra content.
Baku Baku Animal - Shape-based puzzle with bloody weird music. I'm rubbish at these types of games, but I still like playing them now and again.
Also consider: Blast Chamber, Sonic Jam, Virtua Fighter CG Portrait Series: Shun Di

Hope this helps, my only other advice as somebody who is getting back into the Saturn is that Japanese titles go for buttons compared to their PAL counterparts and are much more likely to be in decent condition just due to the awful PAL boxes. It's also worth having that Action Replay cartridge which consolidates region unlocking, 1M/4M RAM carts and save game backup into one item. It's (incredibly) still readily available as a new product, rumour is that they're still in production somewhere.

[Asura]

D and Enemy Zero are weird, clunky, slow, but really interesting and atmospheric games by Kenji Eno’s Warp. Really unique. Enemy Zero can’t be played anywhere else AFAIK.

EDIT: and yeah, burning games to CD-R is the way to go. A lot of the software is ridiculously expensive now.

Enemy Zero got a really good PC port, but it's probably not available anywhere.