UK XI: Please Sir... May I Have Some More?

[Anpanman]

Frankly I think the whole thing was a waste. The entire UK rail network needs overhauling, as does nearly all of the UK's public transit. HS2 got off the ground for one reason and one reason alone - a decent number of powerful people stood to get rich off it, even if it didn't get built. That's surely the reason.

I used to think HS2 was a waste then I changed, the Japanese Shinkansen runs for a fair bit on a separate network hence why you have Shin-Osaka and Shin-Kobe stations, HS2 would ideally take some of the congestion from the normal East and West Coast plus add in punctuality along with the shorter journey times.

I still can't see why it would cost 6 times as much to build a railway here than it dose in Spain or France or Germany, poor planning has meant we have spent more money not building track by not getting all consents and environmental permits in place before starting construction.

It shouldn't but the waste in government is horrendous whomever is in power, no budgetary control and plans 'managed' by civil servants without a clue.
I've said this before, the easiest way to make a bundle is bid on the next big infrastructure project in the country for about £2.50, then a year later increase the cost to a couple of billion.

I agree with Marty we should have started at Piccadilly and worked out from there.

What is interesting is what Labour are going to do, I think they kicked off HS2, Pat McFadden when asked last week wouldn't give a solid answer (add here Cilla's catch phrase) to what they would do and today he wouldn't say whether they would re-instate HS2.
I'm surmising all Starmer will say about it is 'we'll have to look at the numbers' and decide after the election, which is bollocks.

[Hirst]

I've followed the HS2 drama for a while and did expect this inevitable conclusion. I am of the opinion that the primary concern for the project was to increase capacity on overcrowded routes on the South, but it was sold as a project to link the North and South in order to "sell it". I'm not quite ready to say it was a conspiracy and that it was never going to reach anywhere past Birmingham, but it was pretty clear as it went on that anywhere past that wasn't the priority and it fell apart quickly. Remember it was also going to Leeds originally, but now apparently nobody will want to leave Leeds because they're getting some trams instead.

People who know railways better than me say one of the big sticking points is the speed, which was rated at 250mph as supposed future-proofing, but running 225mph trains. A 250mph-rated track costs a fortune, even compared to a 200mph track. The way I've had it explained to me is that it's a lot like cars, where the cost ratchets up considerably for each extra 10mph. But why such a high speed? By the sounds of it, the only clear reason that it was decided to be such a high speed is to grab attention for being faster than other European railways where the normal max operating speed there is 198mph (some can go a little over that if it's late). Bear in mind you'll only be able to do the top speed in some specific straight sections and most of England isn't that flat, so a track rated to 250mph isn't automatically half the journey time of one limited to 125mph.

So rather than look at what we needed and could actually reasonably deliver - say a decent quality 150mph line - we decided that we were going to win some kind of willy-waving contest and say "actually, we have the best railways in Europe now" and have predictably ended up looking a bit stupid.

[fishbowlhead]

I've followed the HS2 drama for a while and did expect this inevitable conclusion. I am of the opinion that the primary concern for the project was to increase capacity on overcrowded routes on the South, but it was sold as a project to link the North and South in order to "sell it". I'm not quite ready to say it was a conspiracy and that it was never going to reach anywhere past Birmingham, but it was pretty clear as it went on that anywhere past that wasn't the priority and it fell apart quickly. Remember it was also going to Leeds originally, but now apparently nobody will want to leave Leeds because they're getting some trams instead.

People who know railways better than me say one of the big sticking points is the speed, which was rated at 250mph as supposed future-proofing, but running 225mph trains. A 250mph-rated track costs a fortune, even compared to a 200mph track. The way I've had it explained to me is that it's a lot like cars, where the cost ratchets up considerably for each extra 10mph. But why such a high speed? By the sounds of it, the only clear reason that it was decided to be such a high speed is to grab attention for being faster than other European railways where the normal max operating speed there is 198mph (some can go a little over that if it's late). Bear in mind you'll only be able to do the top speed in some specific straight sections and most of England isn't that flat, so a track rated to 250mph isn't automatically half the journey time of one limited to 125mph.

So rather than look at what we needed and could actually reasonably deliver - say a decent quality 150mph line - we decided that we were going to win some kind of willy-waving contest and say "actually, we have the best railways in Europe now" and have predictably ended up looking a bit stupid.

This project is so far out the scope of anyone in the UK to organise and pull off it’s beyond a joke, let alone do so within a budget, as demonstrated.

[Asura]

But hey, everyone, this HS2 talk is depressing! Rishi Rich has changed the topic; apparently it's about trans people now.

->Open Spoiler<-

****ing prick

[Lebowski]

We need to see more journalist doing this, she absolutely destroys her and puts up with no **** whatsoever



FATALITY!!!

[Asura]

FATALITY!!!

Love it. I just love the idea of her going on to that show, knowing "I'm gonna parrot these lies and people are too stupid to realise" and now she looks like a complete and utter tit.

[Neon Ignition]

There was never really an issue with the concept of HS2. It's entirely the Tories handling of the project where the failure lies so they have zero room to pretend they're doing anyone a failure especially when the replacement plan is simply another pack of lies

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/government-pledges-extend-metrolink-line-27842632.amp

They've promised to deliver a tram extension with the freed up HS2 money. An extension that was already delivered 9 years ago.


It should be outlawed for any muttering to ever be made again that the Tories are good with finances

[Brad]

Bloody Trams activists

[Anpanman]

ISo rather than look at what we needed and could actually reasonably deliver - say a decent quality 150mph line - we decided that we were going to win some kind of willy-waving contest and say "actually, we have the best railways in Europe now" and have predictably ended up looking a bit stupid.

Yes that would do it, which is one of the reasons for HS2 I mentioned earlier. I travel on the West Coast a fair bit, a couple of weeks ago we were delayed at Picc as the crew was late, got to Wilmslow and the electricity packed in, at Stafford our platform was taken because we were late and then we get stuck behind a freight train. Arrive at Euston over an hour late. I'll get Delay Repay but I'd rather be on time.
Add to that if you are on a Cross Country into Picc and you suddenly stop in the middle of nowhere you'll soon see an Avanti (used to be Virgin) go steaming past you as they have right of way and the Cross Country has to 'pull over'.

You're right HS2 needn't be blisteringly fast, if it is on its own line for all or most of the journey then there are no bottlenecks to slow it down.

There was never really an issue with the concept of HS2. It's entirely the Tories handling of the project where the failure lies so they have zero room to pretend they're doing anyone a failure especially when the replacement plan is simply another pack of lies

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/government-pledges-extend-metrolink-line-27842632.amp

They've promised to deliver a tram extension with the freed up HS2 money. An extension that was already delivered 9 years ago.


It should be outlawed for any muttering to ever be made again that the Tories are good with finances

We love the trams, we often drive to a Park & Ride and take the tram rather than the train into Manchester.

[MartyG]

People who know railways better than me say one of the big sticking points is the speed, which was rated at 250mph as supposed future-proofing, but running 225mph trains. A 250mph-rated track costs a fortune, even compared to a 200mph track. The way I've had it explained to me is that it's a lot like cars, where the cost ratchets up considerably for each extra 10mph.

It wasn't just increased speeds, the HS2 has a wider loading gauge (this is not the same thing as track gauge, so don't get confused here), which would allow for wider and double-deck carriages. Given the trains will now have to join existing routes, you lose that ability, along with the high speeds and the easing of congestion on existing routes as mentioned above (and the ability to remove freight from the roads), all of which would have benefited existing infrastructure.

So the cancellation of HS2 north of Birmingham isn't something to be celebrated, even with increased costs it would still be beneficial long term to the UK's economy.

[Lebowski]

So much news on HS2 today here's a breakdown of the bits i found interesting.

The Torys have removed the protection order on Northern parts of the line meaning land that was purchased for hs2 can be sold off immediately. This move makes It very difficult and costly to try and reinstate this project for future governments.

something they didn't do as quickly is tell contractors to pause what they where doing, millions of pounds worth of now unneeded compulsory purchase orders where completed on Wednesday just as the pm was announcing the cancellation. In addition Work on canceled parts of the line was still reported to be ongoing yesterday.

The Torys have have found a load of crazy northern transport projects to revisit too, one such local project to me is the Shipley east bypass, a massive underground tunnel for traffic that would go under Saltaire (a world heritage site) bypassing a super busy and slow 20mph area. its been cancelled multiple times due to its cost and viability, i don't see that anything has changed othe than the torsy need to spend money in the north to try and balance things out so its more than likely more money wasted on projects that are not going to happen.

[Neon Ignition]

All these revived projects will magically take longer to commision than they have left in power and just as magically be forgotten about by the time they next get in. Also magically missing will be the £36bn.

[Hirst]

Yeah, I won't believe any of these northern projects are going ahead until I see contractors actually assembling things. Bear in mind one of the supposedly reinstated projects is Leeds Supertram, that was originally approved in 2001 and cancelled in 2005 due to the costs. They're not going to be in a hurry.

Even then I think it was a quite unambitious-looking scheme, even more after it was scaled back. I fully expect if it happens at all it will be whittled down even further to something that serves more-or-less nothing outside the city centre area with something a bit pathetic like "it links to existing bus services" or "there's a park-and-ride system".

Really what West Yorkshire needs - and is never going to get - is a fast light rail system. It's a conurbation with one big city (Leeds), two smaller ones (Bradford, Wakefield) and a bunch of market towns in a big cluster. Yet journeys between some of the places are absolutely awful to the point where you'd never do it unless you had a really important reason. Some areas are basically disconnected from the rest of it, combination of the way the land is shaped (big hills etc), public transport not really directing you that way without major detours, etc.

[Neon Ignition]

It'll end up, inevitably with more roads being built instead of rail - especially as electric cars end up negating most of the concerns

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2023/oct/09/labour-party-conference-rachel-reeves-planning-building-infrastructure-uk-politics-live?page=with:block-65238ced8f08297bb34249f3#block-65238ced8f08297bb34249f3

Labour says it will scrap existing planning rules to open up building of homes within the UK

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2023/oct/09/labour-party-conference-rachel-reeves-planning-building-infrastructure-uk-politics-live?page=with:block-6523c95f8f08297bb3424b96#block-6523c95f8f08297bb3424b96

Rachel Reeves reiterates that there is no road back to Labour for Jeremy Corbyn

[Neon Ignition]

Tories will be taking notes for their planning proposals