The Relationship Thread II: Lost in that Last Goodbye

[Colin]

Woooooooooooooow.

[nakamura]

Don't talk to other people. You're just not so good at it.

[Cassius_Smoke]

I don't believe it was Sexual harassment, you just asked her out for a drink, you didn't comment on her figure. Just an embarrassing situation.

I do think we are living through a period were I'm made to feel bad for being a man. We are the enemy it would seem. No wonder the biggest killer of men is suicide. If that isn't a cry for help I don't know what it.

If you check Everydaysexism.com and read some of the things on there, it's the kind of stuff that absolutely needs to be stamped out. I hate the idea of my daughter growing up in a world where she has to regularly deal with that kind of ****.
However, we need to be careful we don't start building a culture were men are made to feel bad for demonstrating 'male' traits like strength, discipline, courage, passion, persistence, and integrity.

[Dogg Thang]

Sketcz, dude, I'm going to level with you here because I want to speak from the heart and I hope you take this in the positive spirit in which it is meant. You're on my ignore list. I just couldn't resist reading the post when I saw the responses. The reason you're on my ignore list is because of comments you made ages ago about women. So I had a good old laugh when I got to the part about you finding it hard being a straight white man. Like QC says, you are the problem here. However, I don't mean to give you a hard time here because I think you have something to figure out and you can do it. No, it wasn't harassment from the sounds of it but, yeah, being nice to you was her job and you misread that and you certainly overreacted and went off the deep end. Asking someone out isn't a problem.

Here's the problem: you're not seeing women as people.

That's why you make comments about them that have people putting you on ignore and now why I'm telling you that happened. But it's also why you find this to be a terrifying experience and you're overreacting and then going kind of crazy about it. You're not seeing that they are people. They are just people and like things that people like. They have earned a right to be more defensive, sure, and that's because they spend a life being objectified and targeted in ways that most men could never understand. But they're still people. Not some higher species who delights in crushing you nor some crazy beast you can't relate to and couldn't possibly understand. You have separated yourself from women in your mind to the point where you can't empathise with them, can't read them and bottom line don't seem to be able to see them as people.

It is in your interests to change this. It will make your life better. It will make your life easier.

They're all people. Learn to relate to women as people... not as a dating tactic, just as a life skill. Work on being empathetic. Ask yourself how you would feel? Just be cool. Be a nice guy who is nice to people. That's something some people just get out of the habit of and I know nerves can send us crazy but just be nice and, when it's hard to be nice, work harder at being nice. Eventually it stops being so hard. Be their ally, not their enemy. And apply it to everyone, not just women.

Above all else, get over that infantile victim stance that the poor white man is being treated badly. It's ridiculous. Just be better.

[Cassius_Smoke]

contender for post of the year right there ^^

[teddymeow]

So has [MENTION=2415]Sketcz[/MENTION] been locked up yet for getting turned down for a date?

[Sketcz]

She was nice to you because it's literally her job.

Nonsense. No public service staff (banks, post office, etc.) has ever been this chatty, or friendly, calling me by my first name, or waving me over to her work station. In the space of a week she was behaving like an old long time friend. I'm not even that friendly to my actual real life friends.

You couldn't glance at her ring finger? lol

How often do you look at lady's hands? They were behind the barrier or various desk stuff. I was young, it was over a decade ago, I did not realise married women flirt with guys. I now always glance at the ring finger.

It's you that has the problem, here.
Firstly, I'm not sure where you're getting this nonsense about it's illegal to ask people out from.
I did a news search and nothing came up.

I knew it, I am the bad guy!

I linked at the start of my post to the Sky News post. I was talking hypothetically. About what if they did introduce new laws, as they are debating do. It's tough enough for shy people to speak to others without these laws. Once the laws are in place, why even bother. The fear will be compounded. You will always wonder, am I going to be judged?!

For the record I judge all, all the time. I also have an eidetic memory that allows me to catalogue things nicely - I used to go drinking with a guy called Dan, and kept a mental log of all his failures when approaching women, and then would handily list all of these in chronological order when trying to prove my points. He did not like this. It also disturbed him at how I was able to remember all this. There's so much judging all the time, from every aspect of society.

You should have just apologised and moved on

Dude, I left the bank and never returned for 8 months. How much more moving on do I need to do?

I was so embarrassed. One side-effect of this is I always shut down chit-chat now in such situations. I was burned once and had to commit identity fraud, it won't be happening again.

I do think we are living through a period were I'm made to feel bad for being a man. We are the enemy it would seem. No wonder the biggest killer of men is suicide. If that isn't a cry for help I don't know what it.

However, we need to be careful we don't start building a culture were men are made to feel bad for demonstrating 'male' traits like strength, discipline, courage, passion, persistence, and integrity.

It's already started. I personally feel under attack, and all I did was ask a woman in a bank if she wanted a drink, back in 2007.

You're on my ignore list.

You are also on mine. I feel like we're blood brothers or something now.

Like QC says, you are the problem here.

My entire post was based on the anxiety caused by feeling as if I'm being labelled as a bad guy for doing nothing wrong. Both of you have confirmed my feelings as having been accurate. I am the one at fault in all of this; the bad guy; the societal villain; the moral deviant; the societal menace.

Here's the problem: you're not seeing women as people. They are just people and like things that people like. You have separated yourself from women in your mind to the point where you can't empathise with them, can't read them and bottom line don't seem to be able to see them as people. They're all people.

Absolute crazy talk. When you ask a woman out, that woman isn't like Barbara, your 4th floor colleague who sometimes brings cakes in for everyone. This is someone who you have chosen, who you have elevated, to the position of judging your worth as a human being.

For decades approaching a woman has always been this horrendous self-sacrificial ritual. It's almost Aztec in its sheer debased cruelty and bloodiness. You walk the stone steps to the altar at the top of the pyramid, trepidation in your heart, sweat on your brow, and you supplicate yourself before your deities of choice, begging for absolution and acceptance. You are then analysed, judged, dissected, and sometimes deemed worthy. Mostly though you are ritualistically disembowelled in front of your peers. It's just like in that Mel Gibson film, Apocalypto.

WHAT ASKING A WOMAN OUT IN 2018 IS LIKE:



Sometimes you pass the test. You then ascend to higher levels of judgement. The first date, where you are further tested and judged. Then later after further dates you are beckoned to her abode, and are judged on your ability to satisfy her sexually. Do so to a sufficient level and the ritual continues. Next is the devotional phase, where you pour all your mental and physical energy into placating her every whim. Sometimes after a few months you move in together. I like to start keeping a diary at this point, since it improves efficiency and makes things slightly easier. Note down favourite authors, bands, foods, childhood memories, likes and dislikes, build up a tree diagram of friends, family, and colleagues. Things and situations and topics which irritate her. Then begin remoulding your psyche to fit her profile. I once went vegan for two months when dating a vegan. Do not be afraid to get a cork board and start pinning post-it notes up.

I usually falter at this point. Pretty much all my long-term relationships end during the 6 to 12 month devotional phase with them saying they don't like or somehow feel uncomfortable with me putting them on a pedestal all the time. Which is a clear sign I was not trying hard enough. But you're right. I am getting better and improving, and each time I put even more effort in - at some point, unless my body gives in and shuts down, I must at some point cross the event horizon and transcend my own needs to metamorphose pupa-like into the person she wants. With my last ex, who I fell in love with and thought I'd spend the rest of my life with, I was quite honest in that I would take her surname, change my religion for her (I even began reading up on Judaic customs to make the shift), and sever my little finger as a sign of obedience like a Japanese yakuza.

The fact she broke down in tears and ended it, is a sign that I needed to do more - needed to sacrifice more. She'd had abusive exes and would have emotional meltdowns, saying she shouldn't date because it just triggered her. She was my dove with a broken wing and there was nothing I could do. If I could cut out the pieces of me that triggered her I would. A more dutiful and dedicated partner could have resolved this through greater and absolute devotion. One must be prepared to render oneself as pure mercury, yielding, malleable, as undefined as primordial clay. This is the truth which men who date must face. At some point, at some level which I have yet to discover, the self-immolation will be sufficient to survive the judgement.

So no, Doggthang, if you're even reading this. I disagree. When selecting a potential life partner, this is not just a person who does people things. This is a prism you have chosen through which you and the world will evaluate you, yourself, and through which you are recast like a bronze statue. The person in question becomes the zenith of all thought and will, a spiritual focal point, the redeemer and atoner, the one who you choose to live for other than yourself.

Above all else, get over that infantile victim stance that the poor white man is being treated badly. It's ridiculous. Just be better.

I'd put you on ignore for that, but...

[Zaki]

I'd tell you to use Tinder [MENTION=2415]Sketcz[/MENTION], but you clearly have finger trouble

[fishbowlhead]

Woooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow 😮

[Zaki]

Am I the only person who thinks he should have worn a fake moustache and monocle and walked in as Hank Franklinson?

[Sketcz]

I'd tell you to use Tinder [MENTION=2415]Sketcz[/MENTION], but you clearly have finger trouble

No, I didn't actually cut my finger off, merely expressed that I would have (and to be honest, I actually would have for her). I still have all my fingers.

Tinder is great though! Every right swipe which does not yield a match is technically a rejection. But it's painless. It happens away from yours and everyone else's eyes. It allows you to ask out 50+ women a day, and if they all say no, meh. No fuss, no worries. There is literally no shame whatsoever in being turned down, and keeps everything light and breezy. Almost fun. No one sees it. Not even you.

What I hate is the way society exists around asking out in public, like bars and clubs. As in really packed places where literally everyone can watch you fail or succeed.

[Colin]

Reading those two lengthy posts Sketcz, and without trying to be to mean, I get the impression you've never actually been in a stable and balanced adult relationship. (Or know how one works) There's so many comments to pick through, but trying to be helpful I think that talking to someone professionally about some of your views could be a real aid to your insecurity and fear around women. If you're getting yourself in to a position where you ever use comments like "Did she bring it on herself" in any context regarding a woman and something you've said or done, that's a red flag. And to be clear here, asking her out was not in any way a big deal, but only your own off kilter thought process that's sent you spiralling. From her point of view, unless you asked in some kind of creepy way, she probably just brushed it off. Being friendly toward someone of the oppposite sex isn't any kind of sexual invite.

This reminds me of when Billy Bob Thornton was in the Big Bang theory. One Mississippi, two Mississippi........

[Sketcz]

I get the impression you've never actually been in a stable and balanced adult relationship. (Or know how one works)

I disagree. 12~13 months was the longest - I asked her to marry me after a year, she said yes, then cheated on me the next month, thereby ending it.

A relationship works however you and the other person want it to work.

I was not creepy to the woman in the bank, 10 years ago. I quoted myself quite accurately, and asked with a sort of nonchalant Hugh Laurie Britishness to it. My whole point of reciting that example is that it's quite literally impossible to know whether a woman wants to be asked out or not. All signs over multiple interactions pointed to yes, despite the contrary. Can we just have some stone cold red line hard written observable signs of being approachable for asking out? Like a t-shirt saying so, or a special ear-ring, or facial paint?

Did you actually read those exhaustively long rambles? Kudos to you good sir.

[Colin]

Ok, I think any more input from me would be wasted here. Ahm oot!

[Sketcz]

Ok, I think any more input from me would be wasted here. Ahm oot!

You never fully contextualised your answer though. If the bank lady was not flirting, and that was not the right situation to ask someone out, then can you clearly define when is? You've stated I ****ed up by misreading the situation, but didn't describe a situation where my response would have been the correct one. Precision Colin, it's all about precise articulation.