Europe IV: The Final Hour

[prinnysquad]

I’ve got to get up for work at 5.45. The bairn is ill and kicking off. I really don’t have time to tackle things in massive amounts of detail. I’ll have to do it later.

[gIzzE]

Maybe he is just unlucky?


Wrong place, wrong time.

It just happens that for the last 30 years or so, all I remember of Corbyn is someone who always back whoever is against the UK. So many people see him in the same way too.

Not sure how old you are? But....
Do you remember him standing side by side with Martin McGuinness in the mid 90s?
Do you remember when he invited Gerry Adams to parliament weeks after the IRA bombed the PM in Brighton?

Go and ask the people of Birmingham who were around when the Birmingham bombings happened whether they could ever vote for Corbyn.

Many of a certain age haven't forgot that.

Calling Hamas and Hezbollah 'friends', going on Iranian TV 5 times to praise them, these are things that stick in peoples' minds.

The anti semitism for many people is just too much. Laying a wreath FFS!

Labour themselves have said they are far left now, if they are saying it why can't you see it? Do you think that Labour party is centrist or something?

[gIzzE]

Whether you see it or not, doesn't matter, these people have lived through it, they don't like him.

That is why Labour did so poorly.

[gIzzE]

I’ve got to get up for work at 5.45. The bairn is ill and kicking off. I really don’t have time to tackle things in massive amounts of detail. I’ll have to do it later.

No worries.

A lot of the time I am playing devils advocate, I think people just don't like hearing the truth. But we all need to listen to others, otherwise we never move forward and get more and more divided.

[prinnysquad]

God’s sake man. I’m trying to settle a bronchially-challenged baby.

Sinn Fein are a political entity. The IRA were paramilitary. Encouraging dialogue to reach a resolution is not ‘sympathising’ with terrorists. He was a huge driver in the Good Friday Agreement and establishing the groundwork for it. His meetings are documented and public. The Tories had actual behind closed doors meetings with actual terrorists, not just the political wings. I’m sure they had their reasons: to end bloodshed, primarily. One of the Tory councillors down your way was an actual IRA soldier tasked with procuring weapons, back in the day. It’s not a case of demonising the Tories. It’s just saying that things are more complicated than the allegations claim.

In the modern era, Johnson’s attitude towards the Saudis is ‘if we don’t sell them weapons, others will. So we might as well. Get out the red carpet.’ Their role in the atrocities in Yemen is deplorable. It seems that terror and atrocities are fair game if you’re selling weapons, but if you’re a bloke trying to sue for peace in an Empire territory dispute, by actually talking rather than going in all-guns-blazing, you’re a traitorous bastard.

The language he uses is careful. It’s the language of a diplomat. Calling one set of belligerents ‘a bunch of kernts’ will polarise things further, and make things worse. Far better to chose words more carefully.

When has he personally been found to be anti-Semitic? He’s been a total arsehole for failing to deal with it in his own party, but man who has stood by the Jewish community on many occasions to be called ‘anti-Semitic’ is fallacious.

Where has this misogynistic things come from?

Labour aren’t far left. It’s democratic socialism. Not communism. It’s basic economic knowledge. What exactly are their policies?

Raise the corporation tax to a level way below many other countries and below the level under Thatcher? Not far left.

Bring utilities and infrastructure under public ownership? This is happening in many capitalist economies throughout the world.

Nationalise the railways? See above. In fact, foreign governments own parts of our railways. This is insanity, not far left dogma.

Nationalised broadband? Japan and South Korea - those famously far left countries - have this.

Properly fund public services as part of an investment-based economy. That’s not far left. The IMF have stated that austerity was a poor way to stimulate economic growth. Investment through borrowing, when the cost of borrowing is at a low, is sound strategy. Getting money flowing through the economy through job creation, the subsequent extra taxation and consumer spending, is what can rejuvenate an economy. Slashing and burning hasn’t worked. So many experts admit this now.

What exactly is far left about any of this? The political debate has shifted so far to the right that anything seen as the norm on the rest of the world, or historically in this country, is now seen as Marxist. It’s drivel. Lazy phrases like ‘magic money trees’ prey on economic naivety. Quantitative easing, anyone? The illusion that a country’s economy can be run on the same parameters as a household economy is simplistic lunacy. Yet these are the myths and the terms of reference repeated ad verbatim by the press and politicians opposed to them.

[MartyG]

Momentum is a far left movement within the Labour party and is a key driver of Labour's current political positioning, compared to the centrism of New Labour - Momentum's raison d'etre was to move away from New Labour - it hasn't gone as far s Momentum would have liked because other factions within the Labour party have watered down some of the policies.

If Labour's policies had broader appeal, they wouldn't have done so badly in the GE, so either they've messaged things badly or the message isn't popular - either way that's down to Labour and their campaign. If Labour stick their fingers in their ears and shift blame to it being the media's fault, or the voter's fault for not understanding, they will have learnt nothing from the bruising they received.

[vanpeebles]

I told pinny that the guy was crap for ages and he wouldn't have it

[QualityChimp]

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[MartyG]

Any oversights or commons votes would be completely worthless anyway with an 80 seat Tory advantage - which Tory is going to vote against the whip given Johnson's just given them a seat in a massive majority Tory government?

[prinnysquad]

It’s absolute nonsense to portray democratic socialism as far left. It also ahistorical.

The issue I have with majorly blaming policies for defeat, is that it’s an exceptionally good scapegoat for the ruling classes to discourage such ideas again.

If Brexit and media influence are downplayed, then the blame can be reorientated to lie with the lack of appeal for democratic socialist policies. It’s smoke and mirrors, reductive and flies in the face of many opinion polls which show the public to be in favour of nationalisation.

I’m not saying that policies weren’t unpopular in some quarters, but I do think there’s a risk that the get overplayed for nefarious purposes.

[QualityChimp]

Here's a pensioner saying she's voting for Lib Dem because Johnson is a buffoon and "The red man doesn't like Jews".

Where did she get that idea? Completely unrelated, here's a clip courtesy of the Daily Torygraph:

[MartyG]

With regards to nationalisation, it depends on the sector and recently support has dropped, even on one of the more championed areas, the railways.

In 2018, 64% supported nationalisation (as per a BMG poll referenced on FullFact), up slightly from 2017 where it was at 60% according to YouGov - strong support is lower than somewhat endorsement.



This has dropped 8% according to a Sky News poll from November 2019

From Jan 2019 a survey shows a key reasons for wanting nationalisation is more accountability - you don't need to nationalise them for that, move the goal posts slowly and take the electorate with you rather than completely relocating them.

The rail system isn't fully privatised - Network Rail own the rail infrastructures which is a public company, the private part of the railways are the carriers - given many of the issues on the railways are infrastructure related, nationalisation of the carriers won't change that.

Support for nationalisation of the water companies has dropped from 59% to 42% according to a ComRes poll from October 2019

This is just one area of the manifesto though, no one is suggesting Labour drop all their pledges, but if the influence of the media and Brexit is overplayed, Labour are not going to make the required changes to make them electable at the next GE - and with Rebecca Long-Bailey as favourite, that's the track they're on when really they need someone like Jess Phillips to shake things up.

[vanpeebles]

They would be better tarmacking over the railways and designing a country wide route for driverless electric cars.

[QualityChimp]

Pffft, alright Elon.

[vanpeebles]

Urggg.