Xbox - Series S/X: Thread 01

[Team Andromeda]

If you feel that games like Batman Returns and Sonic CD were groundbreaking "wow" moments in gaming history, I think that would be a unusual point of view..

So I take it you never actually owned a Mega CD back in the day? Seeing the scaling and rotation in Batman Returns be above that of what Neo Geo game could offer, really was amazing in 1993 and hearing real speech in Lunar incredible (ok PC Eng CD Rom2 users would say thats nothing new)

Astrobot is amazing,but does the game get anywhere near the credit of Mario? . What sold the most Astrobot or Maio Odessey? Do you play Sony VR as offten as you do on base units.I'm not knocking VR, but its outreach is limted and most of the big AAA games don't even bother with it

My point is at the mo VR is niche

[Neon Ignition]

I'm going to throw a prediction out there: Astrobot will be known by those who experienced it or in future articles in VR as one of the very best experiences in VR. It will also otherwise largely be entirely forgotten in the mists of time with Half-Life: Alyx being much more referred to even though I suspect it will be a weaker showcase. Honestly, not to take anything away from Astrobot's quality, but I feel like the wider gaming audience has either already forgotten it exists or never realised it did in the first place so as much as it's a spearhead experience for the tech it holds no rivalry to the industry changing Mario 64 and if anything adds fuel to the real suspicion - that there simply isn't mass audience interest in VR.


And I've just realised how much we're now talking Sony in the XB4 thread and Microsoft in the PS5 thread

[Team Andromeda]

I'm sure they can. It needs that anyone can pick up and play, i.e. in the way Forza can drive itself. But I also hope it has a structure built in and it isn't just a sandbox. So things to do within the Sim. I think that is what the likes of Train and Truck Sim have done so well.

I'm sure now that the Xbox supports PC mouse and keyboards the game will make full use of it and No doubt a keyboard along with a pad will be pretty much essential

[Digfox]

I'm sure now that the Xbox supports PC mouse and keyboards the game will make full use of it and No doubt a keyboard along with a pad will be pretty much essential

Yea it does. Just they will massively limit their audience if this needs peripherals. Needs to be like Elite D where it can be solely controlled with a joypad but offer other options.

[Cassius_Smoke]

I'm sure now that the Xbox supports PC mouse and keyboards the game will make full use of it and No doubt a keyboard along with a pad will be pretty much essential

I'm confused. You are ok with it needing a peripheral like a keyboard and Mouse, but not a peripheral like a VR headset for this game?

[Neon Ignition]

Controller support + mini missions = Next gen Pilotwings.

Do it Microsoft.

[Team Andromeda]

I'm confused. You are ok with it needing a peripheral like a keyboard and Mouse, but not a peripheral like a VR headset for this game?

I'm not against VR at all, I have it for the PS 4 .But a cost of a cheap keyboard to a VR set up is what makes VR more niche, never mind the set up

[Team Andromeda]

Yea it does. Just they will massively limit their audience if this needs peripherals. Needs to be like Elite D where it can be solely controlled with a joypad but offer other options.

One can pick up a cheap PC Keyboard for less than a tenner , I've very much doubt it will be an issue, more so with the game on GamePass

[Leon Retro]

So I take it you never actually owned a Mega CD back in the day? Seeing the scaling and rotation in Batman Returns be above that of what Neo Geo game could offer, really was amazing in 1993 and hearing real speech in Lunar incredible (ok PC Eng CD Rom2 users would say thats nothing new)

I owned a second hand MCD in 1993, but it didn't overly impress me. I remember thinking Final Fight was really good after the limited SNES version, and Sonic CD was pretty nice. But they weren't really games that blew me away. I wish I had bought Batman Returns back then, but the 2D action levels put me off. After that -- I sold it and ended up with a 3DO in 1994.

I'm not slating the MCD at all -- I'm just saying it wasn't as significant as the PSVR. As much as PSVR hasn't become a immensely popular, I think most people who have played the best PSVR games, such as Astro Bot, would say it's groundbreaking and they'll never forget how amazing it felt.

PSVR is still a niche product, but as a first gen product it has really impressed lots of people. There's a good chance the tech will become far more popular with further iterations. I think most gamers would have a positive feeling towards VR after playing Astro Bot.

I hope you're the guy in charge of the Mega CD fan club.

[Digfox]

One can pick up a cheap PC Keyboard for less than a tenner , I've very much doubt it will be an issue, more so with the game on GamePass

Sure but no console game is going to mandate a PC Keyboard (I may have misunderstood your point here). It might sell with a something in the box, if that was the case. It'll more likely support other controllers (yokes, HOTAS etc.) in addition to running on the standard controller.

[Team Andromeda]

Sure but no console game is going to mandate a PC Keyboard (I may have misunderstood your point here). It might sell with a something in the box, if that was the case. It'll more likely support other controllers (yokes, HOTAS etc.) in addition to running on the standard controller.

Yes, but it will be for me like Street Fighter 2 on the MD. It can be played on the standard pad, but really you need a a little more

[Team Andromeda]

I owned a second hand MCD in 1993, but it didn't overly impress me. I remember thinking Final Fight was really good after the limited SNES version, and Sonic CD was pretty nice. But they weren't really games that blew me away. I wish I had bought Batman Returns back then, but the 2D action levels put me off. After that -- I sold it and ended up with a 3DO in 1994.

I'm not slating the MCD at all -- I'm just saying it wasn't as significant as the PSVR. As much as PSVR hasn't become a immensely popular, I think most people who have played the best PSVR games, such as Astro Bot, would say it's groundbreaking and they'll never forget how amazing it felt.

PSVR is still a niche product, but as a first gen product it has really impressed lots of people. There's a good chance the tech will become far more popular with further iterations. I think most gamers would have a positive feeling towards VR after playing Astro Bot.

I hope you're the guy in charge of the Mega CD fan club.

The 3D0 is a good point . So many people say that was crap and had no good games , if you were an owner and actually supported the system it was a different story

I love VR, but most of SONY big games support the base system, not too different from SEGA and the Mega CD . To me untill the day VR is just like putting on a pair of Sunglasses it will never really be main stream

[Leon Retro]

if you were an owner and actually supported the system it was a different story

I'm glad I owned the system, as it introduced me to what the new era of 32-bit consoles was going to bring to the table. Then the PlayStation and Saturn took things to another level. A lot of people compare the 3DO to later 32-bit machines and say it's rubbish, but it was decent tech for 1993. It's just a sad fact that by 1995 the tech fell short next to newer machines.

I love VR, but most of SONY big games support the base system, not too different from SEGA and the Mega CD . To me untill the day VR is just like putting on a pair of Sunglasses it will never really be main stream

I'm just talking about how significant a piece of hardware and its best games are. I think lots of people will look back at PSVR and games like Astro Bot with fond memories of how groundbreaking it was. I don't think the Mega CD had the same sort of impact on many people back in the day. Of course, you're saying that MCD Batman Returns was a "wow" moment in your gaming life, similar to how you felt about Astro Bot. I just think that Astro Bot will go down in the history books as a far more significant game than Batman Returns, even if the Batman driving sections were impressive.

I agree that VR needs to eventually become a pair of glasses that you can easily slip on and off. Maybe we will look back and laugh at how bulky and intrusive VR headsets were. I hope so.

[Cassius_Smoke]

Thinking about VR it really does sit on a knife edge.
It has the same problems as 3D TV in some respect; it's what I call the Coronation Street factor. Is anyone going to sit in their living room watching Corrie with 3D glasses on? If not, then it's unlikely to gain critical mass. Same with VR. It's all about usability. Is it easy and natural to use VR? Probably not.
However, people that use VR and people that develop for VR can see real potential in it. VR gaming offers a level or immersion and gameplay (when done right) that you can't replicate on a flat screen. Also, fire services, police and businesses have applications for VR that push it beyond normal consumer use.
In the end its usability VS potential. I think in order for it to really take off, businesses need to start using it more so people get the idea of seeing and using VR in a work environment, but also for gaming, it needs to be cheap and easy to not only develop new games from the ground up, but also to push VR into many if not all standard games. I want to see VR options for RDR2 and Cyberpunk and Forza, and make it obvious that playing it in VR increases the experience. I still think it will be slow gains but it's all down to normalizing it.

[Neon Ignition]

I think it just falls prey to the same trapping as 3D and always will even if they got it down to a high tech pair of glasses. Fundamentally it's comprised largely of full motion like Kinect tried (which everyones over), motion controls like the Wii (which everyones over) and 3D (which everyones over). Take 3D on its own, wearing a lightweight cheap pair of glasses was too distasteful for audiences to persevere with. Nintendo even removed that barrier completely from the 3DS in what is still a brilliant implementation little seen elsewhere, the result? Everyone turned it off or bought the version marketed specifically on cutting the feature out. Kinect caused a wave of buzz because it let you physically act out action in your living room instead of pressing buttons, three years later it contributed to the near collapse of the Xbox's market such was the drop off in interest. The Wii was one of the biggest consoles in gaming history, packing in the ability for the player to mirror actions on screen at an affordable price and leading to a wave of copycats and new audiences to be discovered, next? Their most unsuccessful console ever as the brand imploded on itself.

If anything there is a sharp and visible move away from the experiences VR sells itself on to the public. We had a VR experience section built at one of our local Odeon's, closed within 3 months due to lack of interest.

Now the typical counter arguments tend to be:

1 - But it's in its infancy and is still maturing as a technology
It's not though is it? It's very much of legal tender age. VR is decades old now and the concept is well known to the public, the current wave of the tech is a huge improvement on what came before but that's true of all tech. The fundamental concept remains the same and there has been no real change in how its delivered or in perception of it. The biggest change in the last few years is that it's reached a point where more people have been able to experience it.

2 - It's not comparable to other trends because it's a new platform
It's not though, really not. It's a peripheral, plain and simple. You buy it and plug it into your console or PC exactly the same as every other peripheral ever made. And it's a phenomenally expensive peripheral as well no matter which end of the market you go. PSVR is without doubt the success story and has been reduced to prices that those interested can jump in at some point or other (and should do) but its success is framed in light of its rivals, as a PS4 product it's clear as day that the vast majority of the PS4 audience has little to no interest in it.

3 - Standard gaming will fall to it because VR offers a level of immersion it can't rival
The immersion angle of this argument I will completely concede to, working through the games on PSVR made it 100% clear that even with the more basic or short form titles there was a certain level of enjoyment because the tech itself elevates the experience. It simply cannot be replicated on traditional gaming terms in the same way that no console/PC racing game in the history of time has ever come 1% close to recreating the experience of driving a car. The sensory aspects just transform the experience. However, it comes back around to how clear it is that most gamers want certain core aspects when it comes to gaming as shown by other trends. Convenience is key, VR isn't convenient. That's either in terms of set up (which will improve) or in terms of usability as the advent of streaming is aiming to take gaming. Another is the tech itself, even if a lightweight form existed there is example after example to show people don't like having screens up against their eyeballs. Passivity is another, people gravitate to experiences where they can come home at the end of the day and veg out or sit on the bus and in two second be thumbing their way through something.

When it comes to the conveyer belt of Future of Gaming concepts I struggle to think of many that actually took hold, let alone peripherals that went on to become mandatory industry standards. Everything from the analogue stick to pressure triggers has its basis somewhere that predates consoles using them but the first step is having a machine launch and that box containing the future of gaming for the next 7 or so years. I think the biggest one would be something like the Mega CD but that's not because CD was the future of gaming as a method of interacting with games, it was simply a larger storage format. That it came on silver discs made sod all difference to gamers, it could have just as well been 1GB sticks if they were cheap enough at the time.

You could argue that VR may come down in bulk, accessibility and cost that it's packaged with every console as standard come Playstation 7 but then we're then we're also supposed to believe the other Future of Gaming that consoles won't be being made then as everythings online, streamed to all devices. But VR as a standard wouldn't be compatible on that basis, it'd still fundamentally be an optional peripheral and that won't cut it as something that goes on to be where developers and publishers and gamers focus their efforts. It's also not counting the countless other Future of Gaming innovations that will come along to try and upend the market whilst VR takes its time getting itself into market shape.

In the end I feel that the realities of making an impact from a marketing perspective depend on impact and disruption, things even the Wii and Kinect relied and made use of during their lifetimes. To unveil something new, have the public go 'ooo' and clamour after. VR is old, it blew its comeback marketing push prematurely again, by the time it's where core fans see it as needing to be to succeed at a large scale it'll be 10+ years old in market terms, the only news being the regular iterations assuming the players involved stay invested in it. As the best positioned to support it and the one with the best sales point and success I'd see Sony as the lead on this too. Until they start investing in software support to a proper level it means PSVR is there for gamers in the same capacity PSVita was.

To bring this back around to on topic, I do get why fans of VR as so passionate about it and want it to succeed. If it dies then an entire experience dies with it and I'm genuinely saying all this from the hindsight of the PSVR making a strong impression with me. I thought of a lot more of it than I expected to but as much as I loved the experience it didn't change anything in my mind in terms of practical opinion on VR's future. I don't see it as a stretch at all to be in Microsoft's position, to look at the VR landscape when it comes to videogames and feel there's any evidence or momentum for them to think to themselves 'let's put loads of money and resources into this'. I think the bigger question is will Sony pull a Vita on PSVR2?