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America's Darkest Days II: Blackest Night

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    That's definitely a solution but it's too long term. Again, using Nazis as an example (Godwin himself has suspended Godwin's Law) you just have to look at how quick the timeline was. How quickly you could get to genocide. So yes, it's the solution and it is critical but it's the long game. In your ship example, throwing someone in the brig is exactly what would happen if that person is destructive or a danger to the other 3. Someone who knows ships better might know otherwise but I think that's how this works. If it's a disagreement about dinner, that's one thing. If it's "let's put babies in cages", then the result will be lots of side eye and wondering how quickly the situation will go south and acting on it rather than "let's all acknowledge your need to put babies in cages and chat about it".

    Personally, I don't think everyone gets a seat at the table and I think if a path has historically led to genocide, you have to cut that off, not validate it. We are literally living the "what would you have done?" moment and, as someone whose family was in eastern Europe during WW2 and invaded by both the Russians and the Nazis, surviving both, maybe this feels personal to me. But it should. Because the Nazis killed millions. The Soviets killed millions more. And many people just went on with their lives. "Wait, let's hear them out" is not the right solution in my opinion. We heard them and we saw the results. We don't need to go down that path again. Like the old saying goes: stick my hand in the toaster, shame on you, stick it in the toaster twice... wait, maybe that's not a saying...

    Edit: To be very clear, this is where we are right now: http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefi...mpression=true

    “She had to teach other kids in the cell to change her diaper,” Brane, who said she was deeply troubled over the story, told the AP.

    This isn't where things are heading. This is where we are right now. It has already gone too far. So yeah, I'm absolutely certain I will ignore or cut off anyone who says this is okay or a good thing because entertaining these ideas, validating them, giving them a platform and bringing them to the table is how we got here. And as long as that continues it will get much, much worse.
    Last edited by Dogg Thang; 20-06-2018, 11:25.

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      It's an absolute ****ing disgrace. The USA needs investinging externally for abuse of human rights.
      The Nazi party started by simply rounding people up and quickly progressed to mass killing. Also, let's not forget what happens when guards with power are in control of people (or in this case, helpless children) with no power.

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        That's the next story scandal I'm waiting for. Over 2,000 vulnerable kids locked up... the abuse storylines feel inevitable.

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          "Ve are only followings ze orders": http://www.newsweek.com/ice-director...re-just-985451

          Also known as The Nuremberg Defence.

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            Originally posted by Asura View Post
            I'm not saying you need to accept the views of these people (your nazi example demonstrates that's not a tenable approach); my point is that you can't just ignore them and turn the ship around, expecting things to turn out okay. Dealing with them might be legislating against their groups, for example, but that's not easy in a "free society" like the US. You need to change their views or simply meet them head-on, but you can't ignore them.
            You will never change their views

            Look through this and see how many people, presumably many of them British, who think we shouldn't be criticising Trump and that it's perfectly fine to treat human beings this way: https://twitter.com/EmilyThornberry/...309824/photo/1

            We're well beyond Godwin's Law now - we've reached the point where a significant number of people are perfectly happy to have kids locked in camps, and are actually defending it.
            Last edited by MartyG; 20-06-2018, 14:42.

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              Originally posted by MartyG View Post
              You will never change their views
              I'm not saying that's the only option, though. I just mean you need to plan for how to deal with these problems.

              Pre-Brexit vote I think many of us pro-EU people arrogantly believed the anti-EU brigade were a minority; we were wrong, and we paid the price for that complacency.

              I'm not saying we need to tolerate reprehensible attitudes; I'm just saying they don't go away because you ignore them; rather they fester.

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                [MENTION=42]MartyG[/MENTION] Yep. The normalisation that people warned about before Trump even got in has happened. The shifting of the goalposts of what is acceptable has happened to a horrendous degree and it continues to happen - I now believe there is NO tipping point for a certain number of supporters, there is nothing so terrible that they would declare themselves out. And it is all fed daily and hourly by lies. Big lies. I still believe there are people you can reason with and show the truth to but there are people who are beyond reach. Let them go.

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                  I don’t normally chip in to the politics threads cause sometimes I just can’t get the words out correctly but the excuses I have heard over the last few days have just made me sick to my stomach. It’s actually ok to have immigration policies in place but don’t separate families and children and put them in holding cells which are locked, it’s basically a prison there’s no other word for it.

                  Here’s one of the MANY tweets just ignoring what’s happening and making it about someone else.

                  You know who else gets separated from their children?
                  All of the soldiers and peace officers who have died protecting us and this country!
                  Where’s their media coverage?
                  More people should be flat out disgusted at what’s happening to these people, yet I’m seeing less and less people caring, it’s just so sad we have got to this.

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                    Originally posted by Family Fry View Post
                    Here’s one of the MANY tweets just ignoring what’s happening and making it about someone else.
                    Whataboutism - the defence of the indefensible.

                    [MENTION=5941]Asura[/MENTION] - I know what you're getting at - the folks that are so entrenched in their views that nothing Trump does will cross the morale line for them are in the minority, so we shouldn't give up on everyone. However, those folks cannot be reasoned with regardless of whatever you do, sometimes it is just better to put these people in a box and try and formulate a way to marginalise those viewpoints.

                    A difficult task when you have a President of a country actively encouraging those prejudices.
                    Last edited by MartyG; 20-06-2018, 15:51.

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                      This was updated by word that Trump has signed an Executive Order to start keeping families together.

                      Good right?

                      New legal filings show immigrant children in U.S. custody are subdued with powerful psychiatric drugs.


                      Not too much. Seems like they've also been heavily drugging children in the US too... and it predates Trump by years!

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                        It's not exactly ingenuous - it means that families can be detained together in camps indefinitely without due process. Oh, and they spelt separation incorrectly in it.

                        Also, the approval rating chart in the BBC's article on this is depressing: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-44552852?
                        Last edited by MartyG; 20-06-2018, 20:17.

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                          Life as President: Detain babies, get to meet the Queen

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                            I'll bet she's thrilled. Perhaps she can invoke some ancient forgotten English law and send him to the tower.

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                              Well, they're both of German descent so maybe Trump is looking for an angle to claim he can be King of England too next

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                                Originally posted by Superman Falls View Post
                                Well, they're both of German descent so maybe Trump is looking for an angle to claim he can be King of England too next
                                You mean emperor of the universe?

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