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      Battin' Time?!

      That snippet of script is like script writing 101, from script school.

      Comment


        There’s zippo mileage in comparing any DCU output to Phase one MCU commercially. By 2008, the general public had a mistrust or boredness with superhero films. Duds like X Men 3 and Spider-Man 3 had caused a malaise. Phase One gradually rebuilt the goodwill, trust and expectations.

        SS may have made good money, but I find it very misplaced to suggest that pretty much all online criticism emanates from frothing MCU fanboy haters. There’s a reason it was rebooted. It’s because it wasn’t particularly good.

        WW84 had a LOT of goodwill from the great first film, which it screwed up. You disparage critical opinion and online opinion that you’ve read in favour of some mythical positivity that exists in the ether of the general populace. Anyone can claim that. My mother and stepdad aren’t genre fans, but loved WW. The sequel, they both thought was awful. That’s with zero impact from any internet source. I also think it’s disingenuous to say that if it had Marvel attached to it, people would be more forgiving. No. Not if we are talking about the general movie fan. Hence the poorer performances of Phase 4. A film that isn’t great and doesn’t click is just that: a film that isn’t great and doesn’t click.

        I dunno, man. Your attempts to characterise the DCU strategy and output up to now as some kind of overall success that has unduly suffered criticism sounds a bit… fanboyish. Only a few of the family-friendly entries have been as good as the standard MCU flick. The strategy has been totally random and just hasn’t really clicked.

        Comment


          I found Suicide Squad to be literally unwatchable. As in I hit a certain point and could not continue. I will never see the rest of that movie. I have only done that a few times in my life and I don’t think I have ever done that with a superhero movie. I even sat through Wolverine Origins.

          Comment


            Originally posted by Dogg Thang View Post
            I found Suicide Squad to be literally unwatchable. As in I hit a certain point and could not continue. I will never see the rest of that movie. I have only done that a few times in my life and I don’t think I have ever done that with a superhero movie. I even sat through Wolverine Origins.
            Same. I couldn't watch another minute. It was just embarrassing.

            Comment


              The point about Phase One by comparison though isn't to say DC ever pulled off some MCU scale feat, likewise when it comes to Suicide Squad not being the scale of disaster it's claimed to be. It's that DC's ambitions to retool the DCU into something more successful rather than abandon it aren't doomed based on the success rate of the existing films so far. That the supposed narrative around them isn't actually the one talked about online. Spider-Man 3 is a great example, with that film we're literally talking about the most successful superhero film released up until that point - a film that was about to lead into another trilogy had its studio not annoyed the guy and cast at the helm - as though it was a failure that audiences had grown fed up of. People prefer the previous two, that's all, it never been a failure in any regard.

              Likewise WW84 did screw up the previous films lead but that until otherwise stated the studio is still happily continuing with a direct sequel and plans to expand on the character and brand it's clear they disagree it was a failure too. It's audience score is only 8-9 points behind Thor: Love and Thunder.

              The point is that the DCU is painted as some near death event scale disaster when in reality its poorly guided and inconsistent. It's not remotely in the position it should be, it's wasted some of the biggest storylines and characters in the genre and has loads that needs correcting as the MCU is leagues above it... but the existing content isn't a burden that prevents it becoming more successful.

              Comment


                Spider-Man 3 is pretty much universally regarded as not good. 51% audience score on RT. 63% from critics. Compared to the second film, that’s a nose-dive. For me, it marked the moment I was sick of lame superhero films, and meant I didn’t touch MCU for years.

                I’m not even sure what you’re trying to say anymore, man. I think you’ve massively mis-read the room here. If not for critical pannings, audience apathy and a total lack of focus and stakes, why do you think WB have decided to essentially reboot with a new long-term plan? Because according to you, they’ve mostly been successful by some yardstick or other, and the studio should have heeded your analysis and appreciated what it had done.

                As someone with no axe to grind - as explained - here’s how I characterise it as a failure.
                - there’s been no plan. There’s no continuity to speak of.
                - apart from a few decent entries, nothing has resonated beyond the trivial.
                - very few critical successes. I mean genuine, above 80% on RT entries.
                - very few moneyspinners that hit the real heights. Big hitters performed below expectations.
                - a mismatch of audience-focus - churning out single entries of adult-themed films is good and all, but again, there’s a lack of connect. It smokes the kids audience.
                - a lack of connection with the audiences because entries have been so disparate.
                - casting issues. Cyborg, The Flash, Batman, Superman, most of the SS; all have suffered issues and a lack of consistency.
                - having to release a new cut was something I applaud, but it doesn’t speak well of the original, that should have been a flagship entry.
                Last edited by prinnysquad; 06-08-2022, 14:14.

                Comment


                  It's just because we've strayed from the original discussion which was just whether it was true that the existing DCU films would prevent Warners from making a bigger 'fixed' success of it moving forward, my position just being that I don't think the negativity surrounding them is as strong as online chatter would have it be so in theory Warners should be fine assuming they don't pull a Fox and mess up post-reboot.

                  Even if Spider-Man 3 is taken as a failure, it kind of proves the point. That low point wasn't what brought the franchise to an end and it didn't stop the level of excitement around Maguire being brought into No Way Home years later.

                  I think the crux of my view is that taking the films on an individual basis they are very typical of most studio films rather than a brand destroying firepit. The critical response arguably matters little too which is why Jurassic Park can continue on as it is and why Transformers wasn't considered a flop five out of six times.

                  They have severe leadership issues though. The company has repeatedly changed heads who have meddled and they got it wrong out the gate. Mistake No.1 was involving Christopher Nolan. He sidesteps a lot of the blame for how the DCU was set up and the tone that was set but he, his brother and Warners came off the back of Dark Knight Rises and set to establish an MCU rival piggy backing the Batman trilogies success. That was a huge error and a massive over correction from Green Lantern.

                  They then set Snyder in place. It's kind of hard to blame Snyder for making a Snyder movie. Looking at MoS, it's really an incredibly restrained film from him, you can tell it was an honest attempt to take the burden seriously. That fell away with BvS and JL was an extension of that further damaged by Whedon and Warners. The other films like WW are then bound by that tone which they only started breaking from around the time Snyder stepped out after his daughters death and Warners started pivoting. Then we enter the 'directors' era, letting each have more input. Trouble there is even more inconsistency in tone, content and success leading us to where we're wondering how Shazam is supposed to co-exist with Peacemaker.

                  In terms of how I'd frame it against the points above:

                  -I'd say there has been a plan, several. That's why the line and character line up from MoS through to now actually makes sense. But that plan has been re-written repeatedly by meddling, poor management from Execs who are too focused on hitting MCU level dollars now rather than to build up to it. They rushed and that's why The Flash is so consistent in each regime's plan, it's the film that corrects this.

                  -The films haven't resonated the same way say Endgame of Guardians did. They've had some success with characters but I guess that's why the retooling is planned as that 'grounded' early Nolan/Snyder tone led to some really bad character designs. For every hit there's been loads of waste particularly within the DCU's Batman pantheon.

                  -True on critical response, MCU doesn't hit 80%+ as frequently as expected either but there's a much wider disconnect here with WB when the film is part of the DCU rather than their standalone efforts

                  -The profitability of the films has been an issue too. They have done a decent job of earning enough but there's been an issue of Warners pulling a SquareEnix and expecting too much so going over budget. I suppose we already know from the new WB exec that those days are over.

                  -Audience. 100%, it's irritating I literally can't show my kids some of this stuff till they grow up even if they know and show interest in characters they should have knowledge of or get into. They need to wrap up the existing stuff and keep higher than 12A content to non-DCU releases.

                  -Connection with audience is a harder one to fit. Aquaman isn't a massive deviation but it worked really well, I guess the difference with that one was it contained the elements but didn't niche itself either. Kind of struck all the boxes, but as it was post-the weakest era it also shows they can do it if they get the right balance.

                  -The casting is a right mix. Cyborg was cast wrong, Flash... that's a hard one. I mean, definitely in using Miller with his real life stuff but word from The Flash is that nails it so potentially the acting is less the issue there. Batman, Affleck is really good in the role, just wasted in cameos. Cavill, he's spot on. Barring Miller I'm not sure any of the central leads need recasting. They need to redo many of the wasted characters like wtf at Huntress, Black Mask, Joker etc?

                  -Spot on with the Snyder Cut. They messed up letting that JL scenario happen much as I'm glad to have the newer version available

                  Comment


                    Actually, the X-Men universe is a good comparison. It was easy to feel it was done after X3 and Origins but it soon bounced back. There though they made the mistake of really sending out drivel. Dark Phoenix and New Mutants... now there are some CU killers

                    Comment


                      I’ll reply to the other points later. Just had to drop this one, though:

                      17 MCU entries are at 80%+
                      Of which 12 are 90%+
                      Last edited by prinnysquad; 06-08-2022, 20:15.

                      Comment


                        Yep, though that backs up the argument that DC has put out far too few films (It's been a decade and they're yet to even reach 12 films) but also how RT is only relevant to an extent. The massively successful Aquaman is scored only 7 points higher than Wonder Woman 1984 for example. By the same metric, The Eternals is scored lower than WW84 so it reflects the difference in popularity we know about between the MCU and DCU that they're aiming to address but it doesn't paint the DCU into the corner of irreparable. Basically, same as we said above, they need to reset the tone of the films and build some consistency.

                        Comment


                          It's a bit like wine. Stay with me on this.

                          Red wine, at its best is fantastic, its rich and tasty and you want more. And at its worst its pretty horrible, dry and boring.

                          White wine, as its best is also fantastically fresh and moreish. However, a bad white wine is 100x worse than a bad red. Its like acid mixed with piss. I'd drink a bad red over a bad white any day.

                          MCU is like red wine, DC is like White.

                          Comment


                            That makes the Godzilla Cinematic Universe Prosecco. Easy to like, no-one takes it too seriously and in the end all everyone cares about is everyone getting smashed

                            Comment


                              RT is useful for spotting patterns and can assist in drawing some conclusions.
                              4 of the DC films have scored 80%+
                              Only 2 have passed the $1 billion mark.

                              I don’t know what metrics are needed to convince that the strategy up to now has been an unfocused bust? They’ve put out far too few films. Whose fault is that? WB. They’ve largely released an anthology of individual stories, bar a little bit of link up early doors. Whose fault is that? WB.

                              I can’t see anyone on this thread arguing that the DCU is irreparable. Anyone in their right mind wants to see better films come out of the DCU. I see plenty of comments saying it’s been a scattergun, aimless mess with very little in the way of a plan or continuity, which would account for the mostly mediocre box office returns and critical disinterest. Only one person seems to be claiming that everyone is wrong, and that it’s not been a failure, just a victim of negativity hyperbole and fanboy wars.

                              To twist Cassius’ analogy. Part of the dealing with the problem is admitting that there is a problem. WB has.
                              ‘My name’s Neon Ignition… and I’m… a DCUaholic…’

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by Neon Ignition View Post
                                It's just because we've strayed from the original discussion which was just whether it was true that the existing DCU films would prevent Warners from making a bigger 'fixed' success of it moving forward, my position just being that I don't think the negativity surrounding them is as strong as online chatter would have it be so in theory Warners should be fine assuming they don't pull a Fox and mess up post-reboot.

                                Even if Spider-Man 3 is taken as a failure, it kind of proves the point. That low point wasn't what brought the franchise to an end and it didn't stop the level of excitement around Maguire being brought into No Way Home years later.

                                I think the crux of my view is that taking the films on an individual basis they are very typical of most studio films rather than a brand destroying firepit. The critical response arguably matters little too which is why Jurassic Park can continue on as it is and why Transformers wasn't considered a flop five out of six times.

                                They have severe leadership issues though. The company has repeatedly changed heads who have meddled and they got it wrong out the gate. Mistake No.1 was involving Christopher Nolan. He sidesteps a lot of the blame for how the DCU was set up and the tone that was set but he, his brother and Warners came off the back of Dark Knight Rises and set to establish an MCU rival piggy backing the Batman trilogies success. That was a huge error and a massive over correction from Green Lantern.

                                They then set Snyder in place. It's kind of hard to blame Snyder for making a Snyder movie. Looking at MoS, it's really an incredibly restrained film from him, you can tell it was an honest attempt to take the burden seriously. That fell away with BvS and JL was an extension of that further damaged by Whedon and Warners. The other films like WW are then bound by that tone which they only started breaking from around the time Snyder stepped out after his daughters death and Warners started pivoting. Then we enter the 'directors' era, letting each have more input. Trouble there is even more inconsistency in tone, content and success leading us to where we're wondering how Shazam is supposed to co-exist with Peacemaker.

                                In terms of how I'd frame it against the points above:

                                -I'd say there has been a plan, several. That's why the line and character line up from MoS through to now actually makes sense. But that plan has been re-written repeatedly by meddling, poor management from Execs who are too focused on hitting MCU level dollars now rather than to build up to it. They rushed and that's why The Flash is so consistent in each regime's plan, it's the film that corrects this.

                                -The films haven't resonated the same way say Endgame of Guardians did. They've had some success with characters but I guess that's why the retooling is planned as that 'grounded' early Nolan/Snyder tone led to some really bad character designs. For every hit there's been loads of waste particularly within the DCU's Batman pantheon.

                                -True on critical response, MCU doesn't hit 80%+ as frequently as expected either but there's a much wider disconnect here with WB when the film is part of the DCU rather than their standalone efforts

                                -The profitability of the films has been an issue too. They have done a decent job of earning enough but there's been an issue of Warners pulling a SquareEnix and expecting too much so going over budget. I suppose we already know from the new WB exec that those days are over.

                                -Audience. 100%, it's irritating I literally can't show my kids some of this stuff till they grow up even if they know and show interest in characters they should have knowledge of or get into. They need to wrap up the existing stuff and keep higher than 12A content to non-DCU releases.

                                -Connection with audience is a harder one to fit. Aquaman isn't a massive deviation but it worked really well, I guess the difference with that one was it contained the elements but didn't niche itself either. Kind of struck all the boxes, but as it was post-the weakest era it also shows they can do it if they get the right balance.

                                -The casting is a right mix. Cyborg was cast wrong, Flash... that's a hard one. I mean, definitely in using Miller with his real life stuff but word from The Flash is that nails it so potentially the acting is less the issue there. Batman, Affleck is really good in the role, just wasted in cameos. Cavill, he's spot on. Barring Miller I'm not sure any of the central leads need recasting. They need to redo many of the wasted characters like wtf at Huntress, Black Mask, Joker etc?

                                -Spot on with the Snyder Cut. They messed up letting that JL scenario happen much as I'm glad to have the newer version available
                                TBH not much I can disagree with there.
                                I think we both want the same thing, we just have very different thoughts about what’s happened up to now.

                                What I’d like to see from WB from the DCU is a multi-step approach:
                                - Build an arc. Plan it over a dozen films. Have standalone adventures but linked in some way to the arc.
                                - Tie the actors down. Show them the story arc. Explain that they’ll be needed for X number of films, and this is why.
                                - Use whatever good stuff has been built so far as a springboard. A hard reset of everything isn’t needed.
                                - Try to pin down some directors. Explain what the vision is, and allow some creative flexibility, but always coming back to the main project. Tie as many personnel down as possible. Have the goal clear in the eyes of everyone.
                                - Don’t overextend budgets. Some films may gross higher than others. Try to anticipate the lower end at all times. Be realistic and develop an arc budget that can be subsidised by any extra takings from surprise successes.
                                - Aim the content at 12A. Don’t cull half your market before you even shoot a frame.

                                It sounds like MCU because that’s what works.
                                Last edited by prinnysquad; 06-08-2022, 23:07.

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