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    For me, I will flat out say that some of DC’s efforts have been embarrassingly atrocious. Even some that NI argues are well received, I don’t really think they are and, personally, I have hated much of what I have seen in their main superhero area with a few exceptions like Shazam and the first Wonder Woman, which in all honesty still both could have been way better.

    However, I wouldn’t remotely suggest they try to do what Marvel have done and, if anything, trying to achieve that I feel has made things worse for them rather than better. I think of Joker, which admittedly I didn’t even want to like (the trailers did not make it look like a film I needed to see) and yet was superb. I think of the recent Batman, as comically emo as it is. And if not tied to a certain level of normal in the DC universe, could Shazam have really gone nuts and been even funnier and even better? Existing as completely individual films without any need to build a universe, grow other arcs, support or introduce other films, I think these films can be so much stronger.

    I think they could be the anti-Marvel. A place where each individual character gets the unique approach they need, untouched by everything else. And not only that, where each individual movie can stand alone rather than even needing to spark 6 sequels. Where we could have whole different takes on Batman one after another, if you’re into your billionaire right wing hero archetypes, or a contrasting Superman film that exists in an entirely different universe while there also could be a Batman and Superman film together that is entirely different with a different cast.

    That’s just my take. When I see them trying to do anything close to Marvel, it looks like a train wreck to me. But they have something different to offer and a rich history to mine.

    Comment


      Yeah I think so too. Not everything has to exist in a universe. Have stand alone movies, or Trilogy's even, that don't involve other films.
      Superman has had so many different takes over the years in comics, they can pick and choose. Hell, the bad guy Soviet Superman would be cool.
      The recent Green Lantern run was meant to be brilliant, split that into a trilogy.

      Comment


        Or there’s this approach! ^^^

        I see the merit of that. At the moment the output has been a halfway house of half-arsed barely-planned universe building, mixed with adult individual tales.

        The problem with my idea is that I worry that that ship has sailed. I said from the off that they’d messed up by introducing 4 new characters/iterations in one film. Only Superman had enjoyed a solo outing before the rest were revealed. For the DC fan, it might have been exciting. For everyone else, meaningless. By the time the ensemble event film arrived, only two of them had banked a solo film. No wonder the audience couldn’t connect, regardless of the quality.

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          I think the issue has been that we all agree but that I've been pushing the argument that the damage isn't as bad as is made out online.

          Like how Venom has an even lower RT score, didn't need fixing though... much as I'd like more quality control there

          The standalone approach could have worked well. Unrelated Superman, WW, Batman etc and if things fell right a multiverse event could have been massive but that still requires some forethought and WB have just reacted their way through things.

          The Batgirl cancellation has caused drama but in terms if what the new heads of Warners are saying... they seem right

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            My view of the existing DCU film (now I have a keyboard rather than a phone)



            Man of Steel
            I wouldn't make the argument that it's one of the genre's finest but I like MoS. I definitely wouldn't have chosen its tone and approach to launch a universe of films off but I think the approach of countering Returns and doing a Superman in a cynical world like the one we live in film is fine. I don't think much of the film is wrong either with many of the common complaints being pretty weak against it. Overall a very solid film with some strong moments peppered through it and a glorious new theme for the character.

            Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice
            This is something of the inverse. There are some good elements to it - Affleck is a great Batman and it's a massive shame this wasn't led into by a solo Batman film that would like likely been Arkham Asylum styled in approach. likewise Irons and obviously the redesign of Aquaman works well etc. But the film is too early on and is cumbersome on themes and delivery, particularly wasting some big plot moments the DCU could have revolved around later such as the death of Superman.

            Suicide Squad
            For every good casting choice (Flagg, Whaller, Quinn, Boomerang, Deadshot) there's a very obviously bad one or character design (Croc, Enchantress, Joker) and as the first non-Snyder film it deep dives on the wrong tonal direction. I'm sure that made a sort of sense considering the subject of the film but this film acts as a very non-fantastical gateway to a wider DC universe that paints it as a very mundane place to be. I don't mind saying the film isn't a good film but I can watch it easily enough in a 'brain switched off' kind of way like so many other low budget action films.

            Wonder Woman

            It's solid and possibly the only film to feel like the Snyder tone has been successfully replicated by someone else. Definitely a weak closing half hour and to be honest overall a little overrated, a generally middle of the road film.

            Justice League
            It's a bad film, I struggle off the top of my head to think of any individual elements I can point to and go 'well at the least this bit is commendable'. It's just a huge waste of the characters and concept with poor pacing and some pointless additions with Cyborg being bad casting coupled with Flash who is pretty pointless in this.

            Aquaman
            I find this to be similar to Wonder Woman. It's decent, adapts the established elements well and is overall a solid film but if you were to ask me why it broke $1bn? Couldn't tell you, it also feels overrated in that way. It's good but it's certainly not a great film.

            Shazam
            It's a small scale film and the lowest performing 'hit' of the DCU but I'll happily stand by this as being the closest DCU has come to nailing the approach they should be taking. It doesn't quite look like an MCU film but it has great casting, good humour, a nice balance between pacing, drama and action. It's a little underrated gem of a movie and I'm very happy that it's getting a better backed sequel to try and build this arm of the universe up, really hoping they don't fumble it.

            Birds of Prey: And the Fantabulous Emancipation of One Harley Quinn
            The Anti-Shazam. Other than the studio thinking 'Harley is popular' I don't understand any decision taken with this film. It's a very plainly poorly conceived film from the ground up, something that should have been shut down early in development. It adds several DC characters in incredibly poorly realised forms, doubling down hard on the 'grounded' approach that was clearly the wrong direction for the DCU and even in that has scrappy structure to try and be clever whilst having no moments that stand as notable or memorable. This is probably the most poorly conceived of all existing DCU films made.

            Wonder Woman 1984
            How best to describe my position on WW84...
            X-Men Origins Wolverine, X-Men Apocalypse, X-Men Dark Phoenix, The New Mutants, The Fantastic Four, Catwoman, Ghost Rider, Ghost Rider: Spirit of Vengeance, Batman and Robin, The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, Spawn, Birds of Prey, Justice League, Morbius, The Eternals, Daredevil, Elektra, Superman IV, Hulk, Green Hornet, Supergirl and Jonah Hex.
            All worse films than WW84. I mean, you'll notice immediately from the list and what's not included in it that this doesn't mean WW84 is a secret masterpiece. It feels more... rushed through development. Like, the casting and concepts are fine but none of it has been thought through enough to bring it up to the level it should have been, it needed longer in the oven, but I don't find the film to be unwatchable compared to other options in the DCU or genre even before getting to wider films out there.

            The Suicide Squad
            This one is a good one across the board and has the added bonus of bringing us the Peacemaker series. The main issue is that the decision to make it so graphically violent makes zero sense in terms of the DCU. It's a plainly bad decision which would have been fine if this wasn't connected at all (even if the film wouldn't have made any real sense then at all) which perfectly demonstrates how the management of Warners has lost any remaining guidance on world building at this point in the DCU.

            Justice League: The Snyder Cut
            Hate the title but this actually goes quite some way to salvage something halfway decent out of the wreckage of the original version. Lots of character expansion which corrects a lot of the issues, colour correction, more thought out plot etc however... it's too long, it's not an accurate portrayal of what would have been and if you chopped this down to 2-2.5hrs issues would arise showing it was always doomed as much as you could easily make a much better theatrical version from this one. The IMAX ratio is a ******* stupid and arrogant decision to put the film out in.
            Last edited by Neon Ignition; 08-08-2022, 10:40.

            Comment


              Well seeing as we're rating them...

              Man of Steel
              Bad. Bloated, way too much meaningless punchy fights, pretty much forgets that there are innocent bystanders. A thoughtless clumsy movie.

              Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice
              The trailer was bad enough to put me off watching this movie.

              Suicide Squad
              Unwatchable. I got around 20 minutes in or so. It was like somebody hit shuffle on the scenes. Couldn't believe how bad that opening was.

              Wonder Woman
              Mostly really good. Lost it towards the end when it descended into a poor CG fight in a meaningless void.

              Justice League
              Will never watch it.

              Aquaman
              Not into the fish guy.

              Shazam
              This is great fun. A good movie. Could have pushed it further but I really enjoy this one.

              Birds of Prey: And the Fantabulous Emancipation of One Harley Quinn
              This is okay but it would have been a much stronger film without its title character.

              Haven't seen the others.

              Comment


                You, gave a reasonable response to the 3/4 you've seen. We're on the way up!

                Forgot one:- Edited my post to include Snyder Cut

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                  My turn...

                  Man of Steel
                  I enjoyed the first half. I think its a good film up until Zod arrives, then it kind of forgets everything it was doing before and just goes Boom Boom.

                  Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice
                  I watched the Directors cut or whatever of this and I actually enjoyed it...until about the mid to later act, were I think again it kind of loses its way. I wanted to hate it, but I didn't. Its ok.

                  Suicide Squad
                  Jesus H Christ!

                  Wonder Woman
                  It feels the closest to a 'Marvel' film, but its still off the mark. Again, its just ok. Wouldn't want to watch it again.

                  Justice League: The Snyder Cut
                  I got halfway and stopped it, and have never gone back to it. I was sort of enjoying it, but the whole Wonder Woman sequence in that bank robbery just turned me off.

                  Aquaman
                  Turned it off halfway.

                  Shazam
                  Probably the better one. Its a bit 'Paint by numbers' but I enjoyed it. I think it could have been tighter though.

                  Birds of Prey: And the Fantabulous Emancipation of One Harley Quinn
                  Ill never watch this

                  Wonder Woman 1984
                  ...Or this

                  The Suicide Squad
                  I heard good things, but the original attempt killed any prospect of me looking at this.


                  Overall I can sum the whole universe as Meh

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                    Another few years and if we do Marvel we'll each be able to publish our posts in hardback

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                      I’ll do mine tomorrow. Been too busy today on Torchlight.

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                        Flash's Miller Charged With Felony Burglary - Dark Horizons
                        Ezra Miller gets another charge and is set for court on 26 September

                        Comment


                          ‘Black Canary’ Standalone Movie Still in Development at HBO Max | TVLine
                          Apparently the streaming based Birds of Prey spin-off Black Canary is still in the works... feels like that one is... just yet to be addressed by the CEO more than definitely still coming.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Neon Ignition View Post
                            ‘Black Canary’ Standalone Movie Still in Development at HBO Max | TVLine
                            Apparently the streaming based Birds of Prey spin-off Black Canary is still in the works... feels like that one is... just yet to be addressed by the CEO more than definitely still coming.
                            With everything going on, this is going to get canned.

                            Comment


                              It would undermine them massively if they went ahead with it given their actions and comments. If they're true to their word it would need to be a theatrical release now and there's no reason to believe it would fare well coming out in any recognisable form to Birds of Prey. Maybe set in the new timeline and completely retooled outside of the actress but at that point it's not the same film they planned at all. Otherwise, canned.

                              Comment


                                The main thing I'd ask of DC is this; and feel free to shout me down here, as I'm no expert on DC like some of the people here...

                                ... but can they start off the next set of movies as having them made by people who unashamedly like their character, from a position of clearly understanding the character?

                                Oh, you want to 're-invent' Superman? NO.
                                Oh, you want to 'deconstruct' Superman? NO.
                                Oh, you want to explore what Superman would be like if- NO.

                                Just make a Superman movie, where Superman is Superman, exploring the concepts present in the source material. There's a huge amount you could do with it without having to change up the formula. You can do that in 20 years when we've had 5 earnest films and people start to tire of them.

                                The MCU might not be a slavish adaptation of the source material, but I think it's fair to say that Iron Man, Captain America and Thor (to pick a few specific examples) are faithful to the idea of their characters. They're adaptations, but honest interpretations.

                                I'm not saying that the DCU movies are bad adaptations in all aspects; that would be daft.

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