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    Honestly, almost every decision made by Jedi during the movies (original and prequels) is terrible. On rewatches, they are so consistently flawed and terrible, Obi-Wan and Yoda included. At least in the prequel era, it’s partly by design because it’s tied into their downfall but I feel there are mixed messages when it comes to the Jedi - they are always depicted as something to aspire to and yet always awful.

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      Originally posted by Dogg Thang View Post
      Honestly, almost every decision made by Jedi during the movies (original and prequels) is terrible. On rewatches, they are so consistently flawed and terrible, Obi-Wan and Yoda included. At least in the prequel era, it’s partly by design because it’s tied into their downfall but I feel there are mixed messages when it comes to the Jedi - they are always depicted as something to aspire to and yet always awful.
      Yeah, I feel in some ways that was handled poorly, and the themes were a bit clouded.

      Was it meant to be a commentary on how organised religions being a seat of state power is generally a bad thing?

      On how "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"?

      It had some lofty ideas but I don't feel it completely stuck the landing.

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        At one point, I went digging into George Lucas interviews to find the answer and I just found so many conflicted takes from the man himself. He does acknowledge many times that the Jedi are complicit in their own downfall in the prequels, that they have become corrupt and proud and their judgement is clouded. And yet he also describes them many times in terms that suggest we are still supposed to admire them, that they are the heroes. So I don’t really know what we’re supposed to take from that. On a rewatch, the only character I could possibly admire in the prequels is Padme but then she was totally blind to Anakin and then she just gave up and died from sadness, so maybe there is nobody admirable there.

        In the original trilogy, much of what Ben and Yoda say is lovely and sums up what stuck in my child brain about the Force, but then they lie to Luke and try to get him to murder his dad.

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          Originally posted by Dogg Thang View Post
          In the original trilogy, much of what Ben and Yoda say is lovely and sums up what stuck in my child brain about the Force, but then they lie to Luke and try to get him to murder his dad.
          That's the thing. Lucas really being critical of the Jedi is asking him to "kill his darling". But that's how you get really good fiction; you take what matters to your characters, then you break them, and how they cope forms the drama. The prequels might've been stronger if it had really shown the Jedi order as made up of "good" people, who see themselves as doing good works, but serving an order that requires them to do things which the audience would see as evil. Kinda like how Jesuits are often characterised in fiction that criticises the Catholic church.

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            There were hints of that with Qui-Gon. But then he took a kid away from his mother, not freeing her too, and got him trained up to be the Emperor’s main weapon so that didn’t work out great either.

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              They sucked at being good Jedi's as well. The trouble with Order 66 is it means that a Galaxy of Jedi were wiped out in an incredibly short timeframe by pretty much 3-4 Sith and Stomtroopers

              I we all know Stormtroopers can't hit the broadside of a barn

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                Originally posted by Neon Ignition View Post
                Shouldn't he have had an apprentice during the Vader years also?
                He did, see the Force Unleashed games and the comics.
                Lie with passion and be forever damned...

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                  Originally posted by Mayhem View Post
                  He did, see the Force Unleashed games and the comics.
                  Sadly not canon in Disney Star Wars

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                    Originally posted by Neon Ignition View Post
                    They sucked at being good Jedi's as well. The trouble with Order 66 is it means that a Galaxy of Jedi were wiped out in an incredibly short timeframe by pretty much 3-4 Sith and Stomtroopers

                    I we all know Stormtroopers can't hit the broadside of a barn
                    They weren’t stormtroopers though, they were highly skilled clones who were battle hardened over years of non stop combat, who also knew exactly how to kill Jedi, that was the genius of order66, take a highly skilled Mandalorian who is capable of taking down Jedi, then clone him a million times, then get the Jedi to train said clones over a decade of intense combat.

                    Then activate, and poof. It was utter genius in every conceivable way.
                    Last edited by fishbowlhead; 01-09-2023, 13:48.

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                      Why did they stop producing them?

                      I'm surprised we haven't had more post-Rise content also, given how by the end of the film the First Order aren't remotely overcome

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                        Originally posted by Neon Ignition View Post
                        Why did they stop producing them?
                        Related to what caused "the bad batch". Once Jango Fett was dead, the Kaminoan's method of making clones had problems, because they had to start making clones of clones. Eventually they ended up with results where too many of the clones weren't healthy enough to be soldiers.

                        That, and the expense of making clones, meant the Empire just turned to recruiting (later conscripting) and training stormtroopers instead. By the time of the First Order, the FO recruit and brainwash children (though some of the fiction suggests they do this in a humanitarian way; like, they buy failing orphanages, pick up starving kids in the street - offering them a better life).

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                          They should have just used another template to replace Fett. Surely it wasn't cost affected either, Palpatine managed to fill a Galaxy with them developing them in secret with hardly any resources, once he controlled the Galaxy he'd have much less trouble. Actually, the Empire is evil and cutting an effective programme due to cost saving is an incredibly Tory move

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                            Originally posted by Neon Ignition View Post
                            They should have just used another template to replace Fett. Surely it wasn't cost affected either, Palpatine managed to fill a Galaxy with them developing them in secret with hardly any resources, once he controlled the Galaxy he'd have much less trouble. Actually, the Empire is evil and cutting an effective programme due to cost saving is an incredibly Tory move
                            The time frame and expense was an issue too it took ten years to create the clone army (clones grow twice as fast as normal so are battle ready at age ten) the clone army was something he needed at that time as Palaptine was not in power or in charge of anything, he didn't need it after he took power and had access to a galaxy of cheap free soldiers.

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                              To similar results as real life, cheaping out on labour. Star Wars might have the most realistic economics then

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                                Except it brings up a question of where the money came from in the first place. He should have had way more access to funds after gaining control of the republic.

                                Maybe not thinking too much about the details of the space fantasy is a good idea.

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