Europe III: April F-EU-Ls

[Neon Ignition]

I still think Corbyn has failed to really think that much about how much Brexit defines his leadership. When the dust settles I think he'll be as finished and washed up as May will be, he's all about trying (and failing) to obtain the PM role and couldn't give a stuff about what the party wants. His failure to tackle anything over the last few years will end up with them tiring of him quickly enough when back in safer waters.

[Neon Ignition]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/16/labour-mps-declare-support-for-second-brexit-referendum

71 Labour MPs have stepped forward, including 6 for the first time, to call for a second referendum

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2019/jan/16/brexit-vote-theresa-may-faces-no-confidence-vote-after-crushing-defeat

Meanwhile, in PMQ's May displays that despite yesterday's loss nothing for her has changed one bit and she continues to beat the same drum towards a bitter end

[Brad]

I do wish they'd just call a second referendum a "second referendum" rather than a "people's vote". The first referendum was already a people's vote.

[Lebowski]

I do wish they'd just call a second referendum a "second referendum" rather than a "people's vote". The first referendum was already a people's vote.

A vote that came from a largely uninformed public with propaganda and lies on both sides of the table. A lots has changed in the last couple of years and the realization of what where doing is massively more clear to us. Why are we all so scared about asking a more informed public what they want.

[noobish hat]

A vote that came from a largely uninformed public with propaganda and lies on both sides of the table. A lots has changed in the last couple of years and the realization of what where doing is massively more clear to us. Why are we all so scared about asking a more informed public what they want.

I think he's literally just talking about the semantic difference in the names

[Neon Ignition]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/16/no-10-rules-out-customs-union-before-cross-party-talks-begin

May again rules out a customs union with the EU cementing that she has no genuine interest in other parties interests, nearing 48 hours left to table Plan B

[Dogg Thang]

I don't get what she thinks will happen now. Or indeed what any of them think. Is there a single one of them actually working towards any kind of solution here?

[Neon Ignition]

By the sounds not. Corbyn is purely fixated on whatever path gets him the PM job but keeps Brexit happening, May... not a clue. She just won't let the deal go no matter what happens. Still feels like running out the clock.

[MartyG]

A vote that came from a largely uninformed public with propaganda and lies on both sides of the table. A lots has changed in the last couple of years and the realization of what where doing is massively more clear to us. Why are we all so scared about asking a more informed public what they want.

Not all are - the fear is mostly from the leave camp as they are the current status quo. Remain really has little to lose from a 2nd referendum.

If people still vote for a hard brexit then I say do it - if a hard lesson is the only way back to reality then that's what must be done.

But I think the reality is whilst May is in charge there will not be one and the clock will simply run out whilst politicians fiddle and we'll hard brexit by default. That appears to me to be the mostly likely outcome - and that's the game the ERG are playing by voting against the motion of no confidence (it's patently ridiculous to vote against May's deal and then back her to continue running the country given nothing is going to change).

Also, the debate on the vote of no confidence just shows how many of the MPs think it's all just a jolly old lark.

[Zaki]

I wanted to punch my TV in the face when Michael Gove gave his speech.

[charlesr]

My feed is now again full of people slagging off Corbyn - as if anyone has cared what he has said for months now - he's almost as irrelevant as Farrage at this point. Crazy stuff - I don't give a monkeys WHO is doing stuff, as long as someone does SOME stuff in the next TWO MONTHS to get our **** together before we get ejected without any sort of deal (the deal we were promised was going to be brilliant and super easy). **** ME you miserable ****s. Stop trying to save your own arses and do some work for us.

[MartyG]

I think you've just broken the swear filter.

The trouble is, there isn't a middle ground, so there's nowhere to go for compromise. If you want complete control on trade deals and immigration you can't be in the customs union. If you want frictionless borders you have to be in the customs union. If you remain in the customs union without voting rights in the EU, you're in a far worse position than remaining in the EU. What we have is deadlock, which is why I believe a default no deal is the most likely outcome.

This is also why I don't get this "no deal must be ruled out" red line either, because there is only two ways of doing this: either you rescind Article 50 or you accept the WA. No deal cannot be ruled out because that is the default position come 29th March, so to have it as a red line to discussion is an impossible marker.

Essentially the position we're currently in only has only two realistic outcomes, remain or leave completely.

[Dogg Thang]

If you want complete control on trade deals

Even this has always been a myth. Nobody makes trade deals alone. Nobody ever has complete control on trade deals.

[Neon Ignition]

I'm beyond tired of the other parties talking about other deals, like Labour saying if they got into power they'd create a new deal with a customs union etc. No, no you wouldn't. The refusal to acknowledge how much decision making the EU has in this process is beyond frustrating and any such altered deal would hit the same brick walls this one would. Like Marty says, running out the clock literally leaves two default options (No deal or Remain) and MP's are insistent on no deal not being an option then you're down to one option in which case they need to grow a pair and just do it to limit the damage.

[Brad]

The options now are the same as they always were:

The deal with have now by staying in the EU
A worse deal than we have now and leaving the EU
No Deal and leaving the EU

There is NO OTHER OPTION. There never was, and there never will be. That middle option looks the most stupid of all of them by ****ING MILES which leaves us 2 options which lead to two VERY different Britains.