Europe III: April F-EU-Ls

[Asura]

I am not political at all....can someone give me the basic rundown on what this whole Left and Right Wing thing is ?

To add my perspective...

People have tried to categorise political beliefs, because it's convenient to do so. One method often cited is a scale, which goes...

Extreme left - far left - left - centre-left - centrist - centre-right - right - far-right - Extreme right

As a general rule...

Right - Right-side views tend to be about preserving the rights of individuals/groups, and preferring the government to be "smaller", i.e. only dealing with things that are absolutely necessary for society to function. Some typical right-side ideas are things like privatisation (where, for example, instead of having the government supply your electricity, you have private electricity companies) and deregulation (allowing companies to work with fewer rules that stop them, which is meant to let "the market decide").

Left - Left-side views tend to be about benefiting society as a whole. They prefer the government to be "bigger", i.e. dealing with things that could be privatised, but instead running them for the greater good of society as opposed to for-profit. Typical leftist ideas include the NHS (basically, everyone pays a tax for the service and some use it more than others, which is a form of "redistribution of wealth").

However, the scale is not perfect, because obviously, political views are more nuanced than this.

For example, in the US, you have "Libertarians", who are a group who want the US government to be dismantled and only deal with external defence. They want absolute freedom, i.e. "liberty", to do as they please, and in their mind, the people will rule themselves without government intervention. These people are sometimes described as "far-right", in that they're an extreme version of the rightist views.

However, sometimes people describe conservatives (with a small "c", i.e. people who want to conserve society - like those Americans who don't want gay marriage because they feel society is changing too fast) as on the Right... But then some would argue an extremist variant of conservatism is fascism, which doesn't follow, as rightists like "small" government, but in a fascist state, the government controls all aspects of society with an iron grip.

Sometimes people use a 2D scale, where you have left-to-right on the horizontal axis, and conservatism/liberalism on the vertical axis - so it gets more complicated.

For the record, the Conservatives in recent times have trended towards the centre-right, and Labour tend to be centre-left - especially Blair's Labour, which was very much centre-left. Part of the reason our government works in the way it does (and the way the US government was designed, with "the separation of powers") is to make it so that society is generally ruled by centrism, and swings between leftist and rightist views, but it's intentionally difficult for a far-left or far-right viewpoint to seize control. This did not come about by accident.

Still, does that explain the general gist?

[Dogg Thang]

But then some would argue an extremist variant of conservatism is fascism, which doesn't follow, as rightists like "small" government, but in a fascist state, the government controls all aspects of society with an iron grip.

Yep but it’s still far right because fascism did so while bolstering the private sector and the interests of capitalists while creating a very split hierarchy, which is completely counter to left thinking. Even in WW2 Germany, much of the rhetoric was: these people are coming to take your things, ie your private property. This is the thing, it’s quite difficult. Even the basic small/big government thing is a bit of a red herring because, in the US, the right wing are often hugely in favour of big government when it comes to military spending and pretty much anything that, through government, can boost the aims of capitalism. (late edit: some right leaning interests were very happy to have government regulation to block cheap AIDS drugs going to Africa, which was the story that ended my career in advertising)

I think it feels like it comes down to: Left - common good, Right - individual good if you’re rich. I have no way of putting that that doesn’t make me skew one way really hard because the right can’t be described as being for the good of the individual full stop when so many individuals suffer and are even targeted under its systems. Is there a better way of putting it that sounds more objective? I don’t know.

[gIzzE]

I am not political at all....can someone give me the basic rundown on what this whole Left and Right Wing thing is ?

There is very little difference in reality.

Everyone wants a better NHS, police force, education system, benefit system, whether left or right.

The main difference is whether you truly understand economics.


All of the current labour parties manifisto was funded through higher corporation taxing, which nearly every economist has tried to explain to them would not see an increase in revenues, in fact many argue it would see a decrease as large corporations would simply move parts of their operations overseas again where the tax rate is lower.



The problem we have these days is left and right is almost used as a term of abuse, which is a real shame.

We really need a new Labour government, the fact they are 7 points down again at the moment should be a wake up call to even the most ardent Corbyn supporters that people can see through him and his front bench.

[gIzzE]

I think it feels like it comes down to: Left - common good, Right - individual good if you’re rich.

That is a view that seems to be held by those that consider themselves left.

But it is nonsense, most people I know who vote conservative do so because they think it is for the benefit of the country, they think a Corbyn/McDonnell leadership would financially cripple the country within a couple of years and we would see poverty like we have not seen for 100 years.

[Neon Ignition]

For most people the hope would probably be to have a left leaning party that was fiscally responsible. Labour could be that but instead gets a few years in and hands decades over to the Tories in response

[gIzzE]

The problem is we simply can't afford to run the country they way we want to run it and the way it needs to be run, not in the current form.

We need a total revision of the benefit system, NHS contracting, Policing policies, Education etc. etc.
But who is going to change it all? They would never be elected.

So we will see the same 2-3 term cycles time and time again.
Every 2nd or 3rd term we have a generation who don't remember the negatives of the opposition party and so vote them in for a better tomorrow. Them 2-3 terms later the same again.

It will never change.

[eastyy]

Cheers that clarifies it, did remember watching a vid when person talks about the far left and the common good but as [MENTION=9465]Brad[/MENTION] mentioned the snowflakes, and now the "common good" is making everything offensive.


I heard it more in USA politics when it comes to right and left

[Dogg Thang]

Cheers that clarifies it, did remember watching a vid when person talks about the far left and the common good but as [MENTION=9465]Brad[/MENTION] mentioned the snowflakes, and now the "common good" is making everything offensive.

Yep, it’s frustrating and often doesn’t help. So you can understand why so many choose instead to gravitate in the direction of *checks Brad’s definition* Nazis.

[Asura]

I think it feels like it comes down to: Left - common good, Right - individual good if you’re rich.

At least in your post you admit that you're biased

I'm not an expert in political science, but I think part of the explanation involves separating ethics/morality from the scale.

So left generally treats society as a unit, while right is about the freedoms of the individual, but the perspectives of right-wingers vary.

The common right-wing arguments I have heard are (and remember, we're not talking about ethics here):

• That it preserves aspiration. It makes it possible for people aspire to wealth/success for selfish reasons, which is not possible if wealth is redistributed. They argue this makes society better as whole.
• The a nihilistic view; it argues that in a cold and uncaring universe, the strong should survive and the weak should perish, and attempting to make life "fair" is misguided. Therefore people should be allowed to succeed, thrive and dominate, as well as fail, fall ill and ultimately die.
• That, in general, the sense of competition it fosters makes society better, and that it allows people to assert their own rights and live in the way they feel is appropriate. This is why it's important to distinguish "right wing" from "conservative", as it's definitely possible to be right wing, yet liberal, depending on how you define those terms.

Now of course, some people will doubtlessly feel that the middle option, especially, is sociopathic! That's because it is, pretty much. The point is that there are some people who genuinely dislike, for example, the idea of a health service, as they simply believe that those who can't afford healthcare should not be allowed to have it, because the believe those people have failed to prove themselves as worthy to have it.

This is the same sort of person who believes, for example, that we shouldn't have removed free plastic bags in the UK supermarkets; they would probably say that one of the supermarkets should've tried it, and only kept it if the public had overwhelmingly shifted to only shopping there. Meanwhile we've got landfill.

Sounds awful, but then people believe in all sorts of stuff I consider awful. Conversely I support stem cell research and am more open to the idea of genetic enhancement of the human genome in the future than most people are. Some find those things monstrous.

For the record, I consider myself left wing and liberal.

[Dogg Thang]

Yep, I think a lot of that nails it and, yes, it certainly reads as sociopathic to me. Back when I used to argue this stuff on the internet (more than 10 years ago now), it seemed very difficult to get into it with a right winger without reaching an impasse that was basically them saying let people suffer or die. But it felt worse when it’s not so much just letting it happen as causing it to happen and I can’t see any positive to that and have little desire to just accept it as an alternative viewpoint any more than I would see a murderer as someone who just has a hobby I’m not all that keen on. So yeah, it does sound pretty awful. Like I said, I found it genuinely surprising the day I found out that just being decent to one another is a left wing view. My area of work, for example, is dominated by left leaning people, often very left, and it’s mostly down to the fact that we try to promote positive messages to kids. Finding out that it was something someone might actually be against was a weird shock to the system. If you ever want a laugh, look up right wing children’s media - as a reaction to the standard stuff, some people (Americans I think) have made alternative stuff for kids and it’s hilarious.

Anyway, that’s me. My leanings are very clear. Might surprise some to learn that I was very right wing in my early twenties. Not nazi type right wing but very free market and pro competition and pro capital and all about the good the productivity gives us as a people. It’s still very hard to deny the leaps that has given us but my views changed a lot as I approached my thirties.

[kellog7]

If things get any worse, the government will have to resort to using this:

[noobish hat]

That is a view that seems to be held by those that consider themselves left.

But it is nonsense, most people I know who vote conservative do so because they think it is for the benefit of the country, they think a Corbyn/McDonnell leadership would financially cripple the country within a couple of years and we would see poverty like we have not seen for 100 years.

They think conservatism is for the good of the country if the country only includes them. Anyone who is not like them is bad for the country, and therefore they can be crushed under the boots of conservatism and it's still considered for the betterment of the country. The greatest fear of the left is actually happening, portions of society are literally dying because of conservative policies. The greatest fear of the right is that they won't have as much money and privilege as they enjoy now.

A left wing utopia may be impossible to achieve, but at least it is a good aim to have. There is no such thing as a right wing utopia.

[Cassius_Smoke]

Basically vote Conservative if none of the following apply to you or if you care not for people effected by the following:

Bedroom tax
Cuts in Disability benefits
Scraping Housing benefits for 18-21
Hikes in tuition fees
Junior Doctors working 7 days a week
3% cut in school budgets
£320 million cut in legal aid
Snoopers charter
Scraping child poverty targets

The list actually goes on but I'll stop here.

[Protocol Penguin]

That is a view that seems to be held by those that consider themselves left.

But it is nonsense, most people I know who vote conservative do so because they think it is for the benefit of the country, they think a Corbyn/McDonnell leadership would financially cripple the country within a couple of years and we would see poverty like we have not seen for 100 years.

FWIW, I’m centre-left and social democratic in ideology and views, and I think Corbyn/McDonnell would be disastrous in government. I remember McDonnell giving a talk to my local chapter of the Fabian society in 2007, and it was cringeworthy. Openly praised the IRA struggle at one point, and I couldn’t believe my ears. He was quite critical of the Blair/Brown government of the time, and I agreed some of the criticisms he gave, but that certainly doesn’t mean I was in agreement with the retro Marxist ideology he mostly espoused.

[Neon Ignition]

In the end you have to take a GE by GE approach. If people are facing increasing difficulties and poverty then voting Conservatives isn't going to help that, likewise if a recession hits the last people you want in charge is Labour. It's a sad state of the political field that those are the options but loyalty to one or the other never made sense to me when both are clearly rubbish.