Xbox - Series S/X: Thread 01

[fishbowlhead]

Some facts on the power output of the new console.

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/02/the-next-xbox-will-quadruple-xb1s-cpu-octuple-its-gpu-performance/

[briareos_kerensky]

A more in-depth analysis than Ars Technica's

https://www.anandtech.com/show/15546/microsoft-drops-more-xbox-series-x-tech-specs-zen-2-rdna-2-12-tflops-gpu-hdmi-21-a-custom-ssd

What perplexes me the most about the upcoming generation is the use of an SSD. Sure it will be fast, but fast SSDs are not cheap even in small sizes. The MS talk about the SSD as "virtual RAM", so will the disk have reserved space you cannot use? Considering how big digital downloads are, patches, and possible install files, I see newgen disc drives getting crowded fast, and if they use proprietary interfaces, replacing them will be expensive.

[fishbowlhead]

Both seem to be using NVMe drives which are about as fast as you can get, Sony rumoured to be using the new serial bus standard for extra access speed, which further drives the cost up.

However by using ssd's devs will no longer need to store the same data in multiple places for the platter drive to access quicker, so file sizes of installs "should" shrink, so 1tb ssd drives in xbox/ps5 would probaly be equivelent of 2tb platter. Thats pure speculation on my part but Mark Cerny discussed and detailed this already in a Wired interview, so well just have to wait on instal file sizes on release.

[vanpeebles]

However by using ssd's devs will no longer need to store the same data in multiple places for the platter drive to access quicker,

I thought the 360 already did that when it installed games to hard drive, it was only needed for optical discs. Originally it would dump the full disc, then it was updated to remove duplicate data.

[Zaki]

So now we move from bits to teraflops, an even more nebulous way to describe a console's power.

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/4c/4ca49188f4a71eb987d369f25fb12eb129d4a5311785df47a822fe9b6a4d038e.jpg

[fishbowlhead]

I thought the 360 already did that when it installed games to hard drive, it was only needed for optical discs. Originally it would dump the full disc, then it was updated to remove duplicate data.

Apparently not, from what Cerny said devs are currently keeping 2-3 sometimes more copy's of certain assets spread around the hdd so their not waiting for a full spin of the disk to access it, thus leading to current huge install files.

[Brad]

I don’t think I believe that. That would require games to know the physical location of their data on the drive and where the drive heads are at all times.

[hudson]

If bits are sounding a little prehistoric for you, tryteraflops.

Whut?

[briareos_kerensky]

I don’t think I believe that. That would require games to know the physical location of their data on the drive and where the drive heads are at all times.

A combination of NCQ, OS, and FAT should take care of that.

[Brad]

A combination of NCQ, OS, and FAT should take care of that.

What do you mean?

[Neon Ignition]

I guess that whispers of a budget version of the machine have gone away means we're looking at MS relying on XBO and XBX to act in that function at this point. It's also interesting that MS keeps on going first with info dumps and reveals etc, especially in a low key manner, keeps handing Sony the upper PR hand.

[fishbowlhead]

I don’t think I believe that. That would require games to know the physical location of their data on the drive and where the drive heads are at all times.

Taken directly from Mark Cerny regarding this, full interview here which is very interesting https://www.wired.com/story/exclusive-playstation-5/

"With that in hand, back to the PS5's solid-state drive, which Cerny first extolled for the way it can turn loading time from a hassle to a blink. It’s not just the speed that makes the SSD formidable, he says, but the efficiency it offers. Think about the hard drive in a game console, spinning like a 5,400-rpm vinyl record. For the console to read a piece of information off the drive, it first has to send out the disk head—like a turntable needle—to find it. Each “seek,” as it’s known, may entail only a scant handful of milliseconds, but seeks add up. To minimize them, developers will often duplicate certain game assets in order to form contiguous data blocks, which the drive can read faster. We’re talking common stuff here: lampposts, anonymous passersby.


But data adds up too. "If you look at a game like Marvel's Spider-Man," Cerny says, "there are some pieces of data duplicated 400 times on the hard drive." The SSD sweeps away the need for all that duping—so not only is its raw read speed dramatically faster than a hard drive, but it saves crucial space. How developers will take advantage of that space will likely differ; some may opt to build a larger or more detailed game world, others may be content to shrink the size of the games or patches. Either way, physical games for the PS5 will use 100-GB optical disks, inserted into an optical drive that doubles as a 4K Blu-ray player."



I think he knows a whole lot more about this than probably anyone else.

[Cassius_Smoke]

The SSD will be a real game changer (mind the pun)...its just a shame MS won't be developing games with it in mind for at least a year.

[Brad]

Taken directly from Mark Cerny regarding this, full interview here which is very interesting https://www.wired.com/story/exclusive-playstation-5/

"With that in hand, back to the PS5's solid-state drive, which Cerny first extolled for the way it can turn loading time from a hassle to a blink. It’s not just the speed that makes the SSD formidable, he says, but the efficiency it offers. Think about the hard drive in a game console, spinning like a 5,400-rpm vinyl record. For the console to read a piece of information off the drive, it first has to send out the disk head—like a turntable needle—to find it. Each “seek,” as it’s known, may entail only a scant handful of milliseconds, but seeks add up. To minimize them, developers will often duplicate certain game assets in order to form contiguous data blocks, which the drive can read faster. We’re talking common stuff here: lampposts, anonymous passersby.


But data adds up too. "If you look at a game like Marvel's Spider-Man," Cerny says, "there are some pieces of data duplicated 400 times on the hard drive." The SSD sweeps away the need for all that duping—so not only is its raw read speed dramatically faster than a hard drive, but it saves crucial space. How developers will take advantage of that space will likely differ; some may opt to build a larger or more detailed game world, others may be content to shrink the size of the games or patches. Either way, physical games for the PS5 will use 100-GB optical disks, inserted into an optical drive that doubles as a 4K Blu-ray player."



I think he knows a whole lot more about this than probably anyone else.

OK, I get it. So, using the Spiderman example, if you're walking down road "A" and that road has 4 lamp posts, 2 bins and car types X, Y and Z, then they bundle those assets into a block of data, read that contiguous block and that's it, all the assets loaded. If road "B" has everything in road "A" plus a dog then they create another block of data with everything in again, plus the dog rather than pulling in each thing piecemeal (sp?). Makes sense. Also sounds like a laborious headache to set up. Devs will be glad not to have to do that anymore!

[EvilBoris]

OK, I get it. So, using the Spiderman example, if you're walking down road "A" and that road has 4 lamp posts, 2 bins and car types X, Y and Z, then they bundle those assets into a block of data, read that contiguous block and that's it, all the assets loaded. If road "B" has everything in road "A" plus a dog then they create another block of data with everything in again, plus the dog rather than pulling in each thing piecemeal (sp?). Makes sense. Also sounds like a laborious headache to set up. Devs will be glad not to have to do that anymore!

I imagine the usage of which he speaks is very limited to very specific types of games, presumably ones that are streaming lots of assets, such as Spider-Man - they were demoing how the speed of that game was limited by the speed at which they could get data off the HDD.
Something that has been talked about in other open world games in the past too.

Some of it will have been down to how Playgo worked and how that needs to stream data off disc to make it playable, that was something that didn't happen at all outside a handful of 1st party titles.

I wonder what the real world gains in terms of storage space are vs the real world known factors of assets now being high resolution, higher bit depth, higher quality, the usual things that actually cause the bloat.