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    #31
    Keep in mind that Brad's question was open enough to include what you are defining as piracy and what you're defining as emulation - "playing a game you haven't paid for" - but of course it's fine and expected to have distinctions on these (as I said, I do myself when it is an old unavailable game). Technically it's probably all piracy but it's certainly not all the same thing.

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      #32
      Originally posted by Dogg Thang View Post
      Technically it's probably all piracy but it's certainly not all the same thing.
      I would totally agree that piracy can harm the games industry. I can also appreciate that copies of old games being exchanged for cash wouldn't be seen as legal.

      When you look back at the games industry though, it's clear that it has thrived from the 70s onwards. Piracy has always been part of gaming, but the industry has grown bigger decade after decade. Great games have always sold well - and even poor(Rise of the Robots ) games have managed to shift a huge amount of copies.

      When I look at the industry now, I see that's it's bigger than ever. Piracy isn't really an issue these days. The amount of games companies like Rockstar are selling is incredible. Even Indie games - such as Shovel Knight, Angry Birds, Minecraft etc.. - can find great success in a thriving market.

      So when I see people worrying about using roms, like it's harming the industry in some way, I think it's a shame that there's still a stigma attached to emulating old games. Part of that is because a company like Nintendo acts like people downloading a rom of one of its games is a form of piracy. How someone feels about emulation is a personal thing, so all I can say is that I personally don't think emulating old systems is negative in any way. I think it's pretty sad that people still have to debate the issue of using roms for emulation.

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        #33
        Yeah, I think you’re still just seeing the industry as one giant whole rather than all the individual people and events within that and that probably makes it a lot easier to justify. If you’ve ever known anyone let go from a shuttered games company while the industry is bigger than ever then you’d get why that’s not the full picture. And looking at just the big successes definitely gives a false perspective. But like people justifying music piracy years ago by looking at Madonna’s wealth rather than all the struggling musicians and people in related jobs, that’s a choice made to make people feel better about taking something they won’t pay for.

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          #34
          Originally posted by Dogg Thang View Post
          Yeah, I think you’re still just seeing the industry as one giant whole rather than all the individual people and events within that and that probably makes it a lot easier to justify.
          You have a great knack of totally missing my core points when we debate. I am in no way endorsing the piracy of modern games. I actually agreed that piracy can harm an industry that is based on selling media.

          I think it's easy to understand that an old game like Shadow of the Beast being emulated on a PC, PSP, Raspberry Pi etc.. isn't harming anyone. And if we take a journey back in time, SOTB was a hit game that spawned three sequels. So I think a reasonable amount of people were actually buying Amiga games. I wish I still had the Beast T-shirt that came with the game my dad bought me as a present.

          I really do think it would be crazy for anyone to moan about the emulation of old games. I'm pretty sure that lots of old programmers - even ones who had to deal with piracy back in the day - would say emulation of their games from yesteryear is harmless. It would only be a problem if someone took any given retro game and sold a mobile version as their own.

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            #35
            I haven’t missed this point. I pretty much said the same myself, which is why I was finding this interesting, like maybe there was a slightly different point behind it. And it might be here in that you’re saying you don’t endorse piracy of modern games (I agree), say modern emulation of Shadow of the Beast likely harms nobody (I agree) but then drop in that a reasonable amount of people bought it at the time - if the game was doing well at the time, would it have been okay to maybe pirate it back in the day?

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              #36
              Originally posted by Dogg Thang View Post
              but then drop in that a reasonable amount of people bought it at the time - if the game was doing well at the time, would it have been okay to maybe pirate it back in the day?
              You definitely enjoy picking at my words.

              We both know that piracy was always a thing since the early days of gaming. But despite that being a problem for the industry to some degree, lots of people - artists, musicians, coders, testers, entrepreneurs etc.. - made a good living, and sometimes loads of money from games. There were far more developers and publishers back in the 80s & 90s, so lots of people obviously felt that gaming was a good career choice. The fact that the industry managed to grow rapidly throughout the 80s and into the 90s, shows software was selling well.

              So when it comes to emulation, which is all about playing old games, I don't think the modern industry should be worried about it. I would think that most people behind all the old games you can emulate, wouldn't give a damn if someone is playing one of their games on an emulator. In fact, a lot of old 8-bit games are now freeware. But of course, if someone tried to take an intellectual property and use it as their own for monetary gain, that would be a crime. Simply playing an old game on an emulator certainly shouldn't be seen as a crime in my opinion.

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                #37
                And yet you didn’t answer the question, instead writing the 4th long post making an argument for something I haven’t yet disagreed with. If that’s really all there is to it, then you and I are actually pretty much in agreement.

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                  #38
                  Originally posted by Dogg Thang View Post
                  And yet you didn’t answer the question, instead writing the 4th long post making an argument for something I haven’t yet disagreed with. If that’s really all there is to it, then you and I are actually pretty much in agreement.
                  Was about to post that you both agree on pretty much everything lol.

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                    #39
                    Originally posted by Brad View Post
                    Question to all:

                    Do you think about whether you can justify playing a game you haven't paid for? Or do you not even think about it? If you do think about it what criteria do you use to justify your decisions?
                    What about playing a game at a friend's house? Or *gasp* borrowing a game for a few days.

                    What about exchanging games with friends for a few days? Seems fair enough, but then I bet that doesn't happen much these days with things like Fortnite.
                    Last edited by dataDave; 20-08-2018, 21:54.

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                      #40
                      Originally posted by Dogg Thang View Post
                      But like people justifying music piracy years ago by looking at Madonna’s wealth rather than all the struggling musicians and people in related jobs, that’s a choice made to make people feel better about taking something they won’t pay for.
                      If people are getting shafted within an industry they, or their unions, should do something about it. Let's say if piracy was made a thing of the past, would those people suddenly not be struggling any more? I doubt it. You enter the realms of questioning Capitalism at this stage. I'd be 100% behind the nullification of piracy if the end result meant that these industries were managed better with everyone getting their fair share. As things currently stand zero piracy would probably make these cats at the top even greedier - they'd all be out to see who can perform the best at capitalising over such an event.

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                        #41
                        I agree with you Dave - capitalism can be brutal and hurt those most vulnerable. You make good points. I have a renewed appreciation for those who will take one for the team and play games they didn’t buy so they can stick it to the man and hopefully show those fat cats a thing or two.

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                          #42
                          A lot of it boils down to the distinction between running copies of commercially available titles and running copies of commercially unavailable titles. If Nintendo rereleases Super Mario 3D World on Switch and people download it as a copy then the company and staff team responsible for that releases loses out and it directly affects their revenue and in turn ability to continue working on such products. If someone runs a copy of Super Mario Sunshine it negatively affects nobody as there's no one except perhaps at a stretch ebay second hand sellers who lose out as the avenue for Nintendo to profit from the title no longer exists unless they decide to reissue the game in some form.

                          It's interesting to see what people download as well. Nostalgia plays a part in it but even when it comes to newer stuff I remember some study years back about piracy claiming that most people who copy games etc tend to primarily copy games they'd have never bought in the first place.

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                            #43
                            I sold my stuff years ago thinking piracy would reduce the price of Mega Drive games to nothing. The opposite has happened so I wouldn't worry about ebay sellers!

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                              #44
                              Originally posted by Superman Falls View Post
                              even when it comes to newer stuff I remember some study years back about piracy claiming that most people who copy games etc tend to primarily copy games they'd have never bought in the first place.
                              Yeah this is said a lot and I don't have much of a reason to doubt it. It reads true. But it is far from any kind of justification. If anything, it feels like a terrible manifestation of that false sense of entitlement - that you have chosen not to pay for a game, but you'll take it and play it anyway? I don't think that says anything good about someone in that position.

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                                #45
                                Agreed, it's not so much to justify the piracy of new games but it's a curious facet as if the impact on new game sales wasn't that large it would suggest a back up of the claim that copies of old unavailable games has no impact.

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