BPX030: Crime and Punishment

[Neon Ignition]

The subject of how to handle the criminal elements of our society has raged on for decades and rose again this week when the government had to step in and take over a prison that was mismanaged into corruption and abusive conditions.

We long ago did away with the death sentence and have always had restricted rehabilitation options for low level offenders. We also have a social system where inmates are mostly held at a permanent disadvantage for life, a short low level sentence often blocking job seeking opportunities as much as a more serious long term one.

There are some exceptions, Timpsons has long made use of employing and supporting ex-convicts back into work via their chain of stores, but mostly neither the legal or social systems hold much support. The approach is often 'lock them up' however even on that basis there aren't enough facilities and investment to make it even a reasonably sustainable approach.

Multiple choice this time.

Looking at both ends of the offender scale, how should the UK (especially in the realities of a post-EU world for us) be approaching the subject of convictions?

[Neon Ignition]

As a launch point I'd say it feels pretty clear that the starting point is the number of prisons is too low but simultaneously sentencing is in need of staggeringly scaled overhaul.

[gunrock]

I think there should be more prisons - if only to reduce the terrible overcrowding issues in today's system. I think that rehabilitation should be a major focus, but think that recent screw ups such as John Worboys being released early (given his prolific crimes) send the wrong signals to the general public.
I think that first offenders of low level crime who have shown progress in prison should be able to find work (but with full disclosure).

Heading slightly OT: I find it also strange how law enforcements focus on crimes against the wealthy eg. get burgled or your car is stolen, the cops will tell you that there's no point sending fingerprinting teams, yet the Hatton Garden thieves had the full weight of the law pursuing them. Likewise the reticence to properly investigate Stephen Lawrence's murder stands in stark contrast to the dogged pursuance of Keith Blakelock's killers. Seems if you rob the rich or kill the police they never rest, whilst the rest of us are secondary concerns.

Regarding capital punishment, although there have been horrendous crimes (the case a couple of years back of the guy and his girlfriend who killed and chopped up his teenage stepsister in some foul sex crime, is an example) that I believe would warrant such a punishment - however, the number of miscarriages of justice are significant to convince me that to put to death an innocent person is not a price worth paying.

[prinnysquad]

It sickens me on Rozzer Interceptors when some scroat receives a slap on the wrist for theft, dangerous driving and assault. The resources spent catching the little dwad must be ten times the punishment of said outlaw. Punishments need to be far more severe, and more prisons need to be built. Stop contracting out to the private sector and pay staff at a rate befitting the job. Highly!

However, the root causes of crime are totally overlooked by short-sighted soundbite-obsessed idiot politicians. The book ‘Utopia for Realists’ looks at this in some detail, with small case-study evidence promoting things like a Basic Income as a means of reducing crime and strengthening society. Society’s attitude is geared towards being one massive plaster over a cracking wall at the moment, with root causes horribly ignored or under funded. Thanks to austerity, ‘end’ solutions are now becoming more ineffective, but it’s the neglect of root causes that worries me most about the future. The closure of youth clubs and the like have a long-reaching impact on society.

[Dogg Thang]

However, the root causes of crime are totally overlooked by short-sighted soundbite obsessed idiot politicians. The book ‘Utopia for Realists’ looks at this in some detail, with small case-study evidence promoting things like a Basic Income as a means of reducing crime and strengthening society. Society’s attitude is geared towards being one massive plaster over a cracking wall at the moment, with root causes horribly ignored or under funded. Thanks to austerity, ‘end’ solutions are now becoming more ineffective. The closure of youth clubs and the like have a long-reaching impact on society.

Prinny, if you run for something I can vote for, I'll vote for you. You're spot on. IMO, yes, overcrowding in prisons needs to be tackled and criminals should not be getting out early. Yes, Gunrock is absolutely correct that the cherry picking the crimes to push hard on is something that needs to stop - especially when it comes to rich people who can shaft a country out of millions or collapse an economy and walk away with a giant paycheck as a result. And yes, I vote for Prinny - other countries (the US for example) have shown that keeping a massive percentage of your population in prison isn't going to solve crime. While yes of course you have to deal with the crime happening right now, you have to look at the root causes, the situations leading to it, the economic and societal factors and make an effort to actually fix them and give people a better life.

[Neon Ignition]

They need more tiers ton prisons as well. You have prisons for the more dangerous end of the population but it's stupid that so many low risk lesser crime inmates are bundled in with higher, more dangerous ones. You're either subjecting them to risk of harm or increasing the chances of them creating negative connections.

[QualityChimp]

Can't we turn The Isle of Wight into a prison island?
Need to remember not to fly the Prime Minister over it though...

I have a friend who employs people with a criminal record and it seems to work really well.
One guy killed his wife, for example, but other than that, he's "a really nice guy"!

I'm all for second chances.

[Asura]

especially when it comes to rich people who can shaft a country out of millions or collapse an economy and walk away with a giant paycheck as a result.

I think the Nordic countries have systems where these things scale based upon income; we definitely need to do that. There was a story on the news over the weekend about a 19yo Deliveroo rider who killed himself over a £1000 fine (which started off as £130 but became £1000 through bailiff charges due to the debt collection being contracted out to the private sector).

For a lad earning pretty much minimum wage, a £1000 fine is a catastrophic life event. I ran up a bill of about £350 back when I was a student and it took me a year to pay off at £30-odd per month.

But for someone earning £50k a year, a £1000 is a kick in the backside but it's not going to wreck your life.

For someone earning £250k a year, £1000 probably isn't a big deal.

For someone earning £1mil+, it's likely just a blip.

If a fine can be £1000 for someone earning £500 per month, it should be £2mil for someone earning £1mil per month.

[Dogg Thang]

Yep, well a fine is basically a license for rich people to commit crimes. It disproportionately punishes poor people.

[Neon Ignition]

There is a sliding scale for high earners though! It's just one that means they are punished less

[Asura]

There is a sliding scale for high earners though! It's just one that means they are punished less

Yes, but I'm interested in how much it slides. I want it to be 1:1. I actually want it to be more than 1:1 as a wealthy person is likely to have more savings anyway. I want it to have the same effect irrespective of how that means the maths has to work.

[Mayhem]

One guy killed his wife, for example, but other than that, he's "a really nice guy"!

Of course it really depends why... stabbing her violently ten times is a little different to smothering her because she had terminal cancer.

[Neon Ignition]

They could probably do with more in the way of mixed purpose prisons as well, more specialised ones. No point sending someone with charge list of drug and theft counts to a drug riddled general prison if they're an addict, they need one with a focus on rehab

[Zen Monkey]

Depends on the colour of their skin, dunnit.



Joking.