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Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious

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    #31
    I think you can be proud of positive things the culture of your country has contributed to the world. Whether that's in the realm of art, science, music, literature etc... there are elements that define a culture and roughly stay the same through the decades, so you can have some idea what to expect from any given country. Of course, times do change, but there are usually core cultural values and customs that stay mostly the same. I think a strong country is one where people have a strong sense of cultural identity that creates a bond that helps them to relate to each other. Because cultures grow and develop over centuries, all countries have ended up with distinct cultures that people can easily identify.

    So I'm proud to be British for many reasons. I am proud of the British arts, British comedy, British film, British pop music, the British games industry etc.. etc... There are loads of reasons to feel proud to be part of British society. It's a society that was built by people with similar values , beliefs, and customs, so I think it's important to honour them. I think a strong Britain, like any country, is one where people are proud of the country and want it succeed in all areas of life. I will always trumpet British culture as a beautiful thing, because I truly believe Britain is a great place to live and has a lot of aspects to its culture that can be admired.
    Last edited by Leon Retro; 19-09-2018, 20:19.

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      #32
      I've read everything since I posted, some of it has made me chuckle.

      Of course my country doesn't care about me. I didn't realise I was only allowed to love things that would love me back. I love Star Wars, yet that prick Lucas still hasn't called me to say Star wars loves me too. I love having a satisfyingly good ****, but not once has my wee jobbie took its log flume down the u bend toward the ocean and looked back at me with a tearful farewell. I could go on, there are many inanimate objects I love that are frustratingly cold toward me in return.

      I think in many ways the thought of loving where you live is taken in a weird way by some people, or treated with intolerance. Loving where you're from doesn't have to mean you're a ****ing racist or stupid. To be honest, being born somewhere is irrelevant. My wife was born and raised in Canada, yet feels a bond and draw toward Scotland that she can't explain, she's just happier here than anywhere else. This thought is a bit out there, but maybe it's just a nice place to be, and anyone can feel that about anywhere in the world. Crazy stuff, eh?

      EDIT:

      And an addition regarding 'pride'. Zen's post about how negatively pride is seen by various religions is possibly the funniest response in here. Religion, the root of most of the evil the world has ever seen, being judgemental over something like pride. Hilarious.
      Last edited by Colin; 19-09-2018, 21:21.

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        #33
        quality post

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          #34
          I think when religions criticise pride it's in the sense of it leading to arrogance or whatever as opposed to modesty. I don't think pride means the same thing in all the way people are referring to it here.

          Religion has caused lots of conflict but funnily enough in a thread about patriotism, the expansion of nations and their interests have historically caused just as much if not more death and misery.

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            #35
            Taking pride in how nice a job I did of installing our new kitchen hasn’t made me want to invade my neighbours homes and install their kitchens to match. Pride can be a singular feeling without having an undercurrent of malice.

            I do hate the kitchen at number 40 though, and I’m sure they’ve been revering their stove different from what we do. Those dirty bastards.

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              #36
              I agree lol. I meant there's different interpretations of pride and I guess it depends on context, too. Like I'm sure most parents are proud of their kids when they do well at something. But if they started treating their kids like little emperors and didn't teach them respect and good manners then they'd be ruining their kids.

              Anyway I think humans are pretty good at hate and divide and conquer. Maybe the only thing that will unite this world is if aliens invade and we can all unite by hating their green or purple skin. I always thought any half intelligent aliens would look at the mess we've made of this planet and think 'f__k visiting that planet they're complete trash.'
              Last edited by monel; 19-09-2018, 23:11.

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                #37
                With the whole 'loving something that doesn't love you back' approach though, it's less about being patriotic about Britain as an inanimate lump of land and it not caring back and more about the people as a nation. Patriotism is pride but also a heavy dose of blind faith and it relates to everything that comes from a man made definition of a geographical areas population. I wouldn't put that faith into one stranger, let alone a whole mass of them.

                In many ways Patriotism is a belief in a lie. I completely get loving a place or feeling like you belong somewhere but being patriotic to it is purely an individual conscious decision to stand behind it even if you disagree with it. Cultures, populations, views, globalisation etc all change constantly.

                It's like being patriotic to England in the 70's and being patriotic still today - it's not remotely the same country. If someone decides they want to be as they fully believe and stand behind the changes that have occurred over those decades and wants them protected then that's fine, but typically when people talk about patriotism it relates to the blind support for some imaginary notion of what a country and it's people are, that's what doesn't make sense.

                Like organised religion, we'd be better off without defined countries altogether.

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                  #38
                  Originally posted by Colin View Post
                  Taking pride in how nice a job I did of installing our new kitchen hasn’t made me want to invade my neighbours homes and install their kitchens to match. Pride can be a singular feeling without having an undercurrent of malice.

                  I do hate the kitchen at number 40 though, and I’m sure they’ve been revering their stove different from what we do. Those dirty bastards.

                  +1 for "Ikobo: Kitchen Warrior" videogame on kickstarter

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                    #39
                    Originally posted by Colin View Post

                    And an addition regarding 'pride'. Zen's post about how negatively pride is seen by various religions is possibly the funniest response in here. Religion, the root of most of the evil the world has ever seen, being judgemental over something like pride. Hilarious.
                    People do do awful things in the name of religion, but they're not really religious. True religion, no matter it's name or particularities, is always about love and compassion. Love and compassion for all; including the prideful! The trouble with pride is it's a fabrication. It ain't real. It's a product of the ego. And the ego ain't real either. In other words pride is a fabrication of a fabrication. Start getting involved with feelings like that and there's no end to delusion.

                    I also wanna say that what you described about Scotland sounded more like joy than pride to me.

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                      #40
                      It's weird the human need to associate with something great.

                      We've got a brilliant LAME to FAME thread, that's an extension of this, but people are always saying things like "Robbie Williams was born in the next town over from me!" or "My friend once worked with J.K. Rowling's cousin".

                      I think it's important to have an interest in politics, because we live here, but I find it odd that people are bursting with pride at something British, just because they live here too.

                      I liked this year's World Cup, but I don't feel any kinship with any of the players, just because we were all born here.

                      I don't think patriotism is the virtue of the vicious as the title implies, and a healthy acknowledgement of achievements is good, but nationalistic fervour is dangerous.

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                        #41
                        Originally posted by Zen Monkey View Post
                        People do do awful things in the name of religion, but they're not really religious. True religion, no matter it's name or particularities, is always about love and compassion.
                        This enables the worst of people who carry stuff out in the name of religion. What you're doing here is applying your own interpretation to religion and claiming it is "true" religion and stating what it is "always" about, like it's an absolute. So others can agree with you that there is such thing as true religion but it's how they interpret it. And the thing is, the extremists tend to follow the letter of the texts much more literally and so can make a very good case that they are following the true religion and they're the ones who are really religious. Pretty much every major religious text has awful rules and suggestions in there and those who carry those things are probably more "religious" by any measure.

                        Or instead you could dismiss the idea that there is a "true" religion and that you can be spiritual and connected to your beliefs without having to follow the rules of texts several thousand years old that are outdated and dangerous.

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                          #42
                          The only patriot who matters:

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                            #43
                            When I say true religion I'm not referring to a particular belief system. I don't believe Buddhism or Hinduism or Christianity is the true religion. Nor do I mean adhering to any particular text, whether it's the Bible or the Dhammapada or Bhagavad Gita. I mean direct experience. That's the only truth. And that's within everyone's grasp. We all have our likes and dislikes and beliefs and hopes and fears but all that stuff is created by conditions. But there's something underneath all that. Something that's unconditional and true and common to everyone. It feels like love to me. Love and compassion.

                            I don't like talking about religion (hard to believe, I know, given how often I mention it ) because the word has so many connotations but to me it's about acting from a place of what's real. It's not about following anyone, or joining a group, or (and this one may seem hard to believe) believing in something, it's about an experience. And I like Jesus and Buddha and Lao Tzu and similar figures because they pointed the way to that experience.

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                              #44
                              Ah okay. I'm not religious or spiritual but I agree with you here. I usually take the word religion to mean the systems and structures which, as I get older, I find myself more dead set against but I see you don't mean it that way. I'm with you on love.

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                                #45
                                We're in massive sidetrack territory here but I need to read up on other religions figures. Like, to me Jesus is just one massive fabrication, a plot device to be used to facilitate other intents, but despite the opposition many religions have to one another they often share a lot of common traits and it'd be interesting to know how far that goes. Not so much from a belief angle, just how humans form different locations can come up with differing belief systems that are built on very similar foundations, the psychology behind that.

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