Canon-Strike III: Star Wars

[Asura]

but at the same time it's a little... dull.

I feel kinda similar, but I find it hard to be objective. I had this taped off TV on VHS in the 80s/90s, and as a child I must have watched it hundreds of times, to the point of wearing out the tape; as a result I find it hard to work out if it's genuinely dull, or if I've just flogged it to death.

Then again... I can practically quote The Princess Bride word-for-word for similar reasons, and I don't have the same problem with that.

[wakka]

I think the original Star Wars is one of those real 'lightning in a bottle' moments. It comes together brilliantly - the script, production design, actors and music gel to create something really compelling. We were at a point when Lucas wasn't overflowing with arrogance and would take advice (for example, the opening crawl was De Palma's idea, and he wrote it - which implies there's probably lots else in the film that were other people's ideas, too, and it's probably much the better for it).

The hints at a wider, weird universe are brilliantly tantalising. It's likable. It's fun. It doesn't outstay its welcome. And it's very, very 70s, and yet also timeless in the simple effectiveness of its story and characters.

I love it. My favourite Star Wars, by a country mile.

[Dogg Thang]

(for example, the opening crawl was De Palma's idea, and he wrote it - which implies there's probably lots else in the film that were other people's ideas, too, and it's probably much the better for it)..

There is a fantastic book called The Annotated Screenplays or something along those lines and it's the screenplays for the movies with notes about what was in previous drafts, interspersed with comments from interviews over the years. The first film is particularly interesting because, while Lucas of course deserves a massive amount of credit, it becomes very clear very quickly that it was a hugely collaborative effort all the way through and the end product is a result of a lot of people bringing their best, not just Lucas. It's a fascinating read, especially where some interviews directly contradict other interviews or contradict previous drafts. Lucas is of course the worst offender for this, often saying "it was always planned that X would happen" when it's very clear from earlier drafts that it wasn't the case (Anakin was in an early draft of Empire, for example, as a separate character).

Anyway, yeah, it feels like a lot of great people, including Lucas, came together on that movie and the results show that.

[wakka]

That book sounds brilliant, I'll pick that up - thanks.

Anyway, yeah, it feels like a lot of great people, including Lucas, came together on that movie and the results show that.

Yes, I completely agree. It feels like there was a healthy dose of serendipity - right team, right time.

[Asura]

Lucas is of course the worst offender for this, often saying "it was always planned that X would happen" when it's very clear from earlier drafts that it wasn't the case (Anakin was in an early draft of Empire, for example, as a separate character).

Apologies if I've already said this in this very thread but I can't recall if we've talked about this recently...

... but I've always believed Lucas is a very gifted bull****ter.

Not in a vindictive or disparaging way. I just mean that the guy is good at spinning a yarn, and understands the value of "the story" that goes alongside any piece of media, no different to how a band might amp up their early beginnings to give them more personality to potential listeners.

It's undeniable that Star Wars had quite humble beginnings and Lucas had to fight for it. During his pitches, people would no doubt be thinking of something closer to Barbarella than what we got. But he'd directed several movies before, including American Graffiti, which was well-received and considered one of the most profitable movies ever. He wasn't an "unknown" for a modest budget film.

I think this is better explained by the whole point with the toys. I might be over-paraphrasing here, but I know that Lucas waived some of his rights to movie revenue in favour of a royalty on toys & merchandise, which the execs granted him, thinking him a fool. At the same time, Lucas says over and over in interviews "oh, I had no idea it would be a big thing", "I didn't expect it to make money"... These two things are kinda discordant.

I think every creative, at times, has those moments where they accept an oscar while standing in the shower. Everything you make, you have a fleeting moment where you imagine that it will be the biggest thing ever. That it'll sell 10 million copies. I think you need to have some belief in what you're making, at least a little.

But I also think Lucas understands that there's value in the myth. The idea that he was almost divinely inspired to write this whole saga, that it came out fully-formed, and he would spend the next 30 years realising his "empire of dreams" exactly as he wrote it. That he put stuff in the older movies with a wink and nod, knowing that he would revisit it some day with the prequels. People like that stuff. They like the idea that Lucas was this creative genius who gave us this imaginary vision. And he knows that.

He isn't the sort of person who aggressively self-promotes, or exerts ownership over other peoples' work. Like I'm sure he would be the first to praise Ralph McQuarrie or the countless others who made Star Wars what it was. But I just think he's good at presenting everything "on message".

[CMcK]

He isn't the sort of person who aggressively self-promotes, or exerts ownership over other peoples' work. Like I'm sure he would be the first to praise Ralph McQuarrie or the countless others who made Star Wars what it was. But I just think he's good at presenting everything "on message".

I’m pretty sure Marcia Lucas (née Griffin) wouldn’t agree with that. She’s been wiped out of Star Wars history despite editing the first film.

[Asura]

I’m pretty sure Marcia Lucas (née Griffin) wouldn’t agree with that. She’s been wiped out of Star Wars history despite editing the first film.

I just didn't want to accuse him, as I wasn't aware there was a great deal of this.

Is this the thing about how his ex-wife really "made" the film in the editing room? I've heard that but not the details.

[Neon Ignition]

Yeah, if it weren't for the rights situation I'm doubtful he'd have lasted wrong. As successful as it is it feels like Lucas needed Star Wars rather than the other way around. I used to give him more benefit because of Indy but the more I learnt about that franchise the more it became clear that again he came up with the original nugget of an idea cribbed on someone else's work he liked and others carried it to what it is to a very strong extent. He's less a good filmmaker and more just an incredibly fortunate one (who sold Lucasfilm for too little)

[wakka]

You can be a visionary and deserve credit and also be a bull****ter high on your own supply at the same time. I think Lucas is both, personally.

[Dogg Thang]

Yep, I totally agree with Wakka. Lucas deserves a massive amount of credit for much of the vision of Star Wars and especially the ambition that pushed it forward and made those early films what they were. But he’s also a serial liar. And all the great results were very much a collaboration. These things can all be true at once.

[Neon Ignition]

Movie 07 - Star Wars Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back
Aka the really good one. The film was important at the time just as much as it's proven to be in the years that followed. Not just the weight of responsibility of delivering a worthy follow up to a huge hit, this second entry had to set up a known third chapter whilst expanding on the world of the original all while being helmed by a different director so having its own tone - in this case a darker one. Whilst some of the story details clash with what New Hope delivered the result is one of the most well known and meme'd plot twists in cinematic history.




Is Empire still the peak of Star Wars movie accomplishments and does it's part in the canon still crucial?

[Asura]

Doesn't matter how many decades pass.

The bit where Leia kisses Luke is weird.

Because he's her brother, and somehow, she's always known.

[Dogg Thang]

Only retrospectively though because, like with other stuff we’ve discussed, it was never part of the plan that she was his sister. And still to this day, that’s where it really gets a bit stupid (a Lego Star Wars scene somewhere nailed that but I can’t look for it now).

[Mayhem]

There's one thing about ESB that wouldn't work today - there's no goddamn way THAT plot twist would stay unspoilered long once the film was out. And that's a sad thing about today's movie experience, that often there can be much less surprise about what to expect and see.

Is this the thing about how his ex-wife really "made" the film in the editing room? I've heard that but not the details.

Not just her, Paul Hirsch and Richard Chew as well. But Marcia was mostly responsible for completely re-editing, re-organising and re-pacing the final attack on the Death Star. There's a longer video out there that attempts to reconstruct what the original edit of the film was like (including for example Luke having two attempts at the exhaust port) but this is a shorter one that should cover most of the main points:

https://youtu.be/GFMyMxMYDNk

[Dogg Thang]

Yep, very difficult for a film to remain spoiler-free these days.

I think Empire is superb. I have literally worn out VHS copies watching it so much. The opening Hoth battle is incredible and was like nothing we've seen before and it still holds up to this day. The AT-ATs are amazing. And very interesting to open with the huge battle set piece. Yoda is wonderful and I completely 100% believe him as a real living being. The Bespin stuff with Han, Lando and Leia plays brilliantly - there's a real tension all the way through that and it goes dark in places.

And then the Luke/Vader encounters that follow are stunning. So much power in those scenes. I think it's an amazing film.

It is helped in some way because it didn't have to wrap up. It's the least self-contained movie, perhaps. Unless one of the prequels is left hanging even more? I can't remember. And I must admit that, after 100s of watches, I get a bit restless during Luke's training scenes. But otherwise, it is fantastic. And also one of the least dicked-about-with movies in the original trilogy. The core of the original movie is intact.