Canon-Strike III: Star Wars

[wakka]

Yep, agreed with all of you guys, it's absolutely my favourite of the non-OT films.

I've only seen it once, on opening weekend at the IMAX. The hype was real. I remember when the tickets went on sale, I was on the bus going into work, and I was desperately trying to get through online to book and the website kept crashing. But as luck would have it, my bus route back then took me right past the Waterloo IMAX. I disembarked and went into the cinema and managed to book three of the best seats in the house for the Saturday after release.

Night before, me and a mate who was going with me watched the entire OT (while drinking fairly heavily I might add). We were psyched. Psyched!!

And you know what? It did not disappoint for one second. I absolutely loved it. It totally delivered for me, and, sure, it's pretty close to Ep 4. But that's fine. Honestly, that's what I wanted really. It was a fun, exciting adventure that actually felt like Star Wars, unlike the turgid prequels. Loved the new characters (like Dogg, I'd happily have had more of them and less of the older folks). Loved the production design. Really had a blast.

Now, looking back, it's probably not the greatest film of all time. And I haven't watched it again partly for that reason. That was such a fun experience, having that feeling again like when I was a kid watching them on videotape for the first time, that I don't really feel the need for a 'cold light of day' re-watch at home.

So, yeah. I liked it a lot. But at heart it's basically a retread of Ep 4 and while I really liked it for that in some ways, it also kinda marks it down for me. Mostly because it draws an instant comparison, and it's one that's not favourable for this entry. The original is still better. But Ep 7 is the best film after 4 and 5, I would say.

[Cassius_Smoke]

I think ep7 is just a lot of hot air. On the surface its an OK film with some good sequences, but it's got as much depth as the horizon. Plus, knowing the sequels exist now makes the film even worse because you know all the set ups this film has aren't answered, or are a load of old ****.

[beecee]

I thought like a lot of people Ep7 was pretty good, on first viewing, mainly due to it being a new SW film. But subsequent viewing rapidly goes downhill, as many have said rehash of EPIV.

Poe really got annoying in the two sequels and his interactions with Fin was just plain stupid. there is just no real chemistry or good story telling particularly in the sequel trilogy, Ep8 is where it totally lost the plot, how anyone approved that script is beyond me. which did make it much harder for anyone to suitably conclude these films.

i have given up on the prequels and sequel trilogies, will now only watch the originals, rogue one and solo (yes i liked Solo).

[Neon Ignition]

Movie 10 - Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
Decades of anticipation and hype born of the ending of the previous main entry had fans waiting to finally see the return of Luke Skywalker in this next entry. Opening back to back narratively with the previous film this entry blew away expectations quite literally with a toss of the lightsaber as Luke throws away his legacy and initially dismisses Rey. Episode VIII marked a real turning point for the fanbase, some finding the film to be an interesting reinterpretation and take on the canon with others feeling it tore the sequel trilogy plans apart.



Is Last Jedi one of the smartest readings of the Star Wars canon and misunderstood great or is a mess that drags the franchise down?

[Dogg Thang]

I love The Last Jedi. For me, it's easily the most thematically-rich of the Star Wars movies and it has some perfect readings of the previous stories and, especially, Luke himself - a perfect reading that some fans just don't want to see because they remember their 10 year old self thinking he was a badass (he was never a badass). And I think Hamill's performance in this movie is an absolute treat. Almost every frame of his is wonderful.

I also loved the build up between Rey and Kylo and, again, Driver played this brilliantly. He is absolutely superb. And it's a thoughtful movie, with each part saying something about the other parts, particularly around failure - a huge amount of the movie is about dealing with failure. That not everything goes to plan. That just because something sounds exciting and daring doesn't make it a good idea.

And it's also gorgeous. That fight in the red room is beautiful. The salty snow place is lovely and the framing of the shots is sublime.

But it's also a very weird film. The fact that the entire film is one really, really slow chase was a strange decision. The tone feels quite unique among Star Wars films. The humour, for me, didn't land at all. And while some things improved on subsequent watches, the humour never did for me. It's like he tried to do what Abrams did and just couldn't quite get it. And I really didn't like the casino planet sequence - how it looked and how it played out, even though subsequent watches showed me why it was important and why it was there (although lots of questions over how they could just escape and get there and back and so on). It was about the failure of that attempt. About why it went wrong and that it was a bad idea all along which was a core part of the themes of the movie.

I love that it's so rich and that it gives a reading of Star Wars we haven't seen before but I guess there is a case to be made about a mainline Star Wars film, in a series about adventure and heroism, not being the place to expose the lack of thought, the naivety and the negative sides of that adventure and heroism.

[Asura]

I love that it's so rich and that it gives a reading of Star Wars we haven't seen before but I guess there is a case to be made about a mainline Star Wars film, in a series about adventure and heroism, not being the place to expose the lack of thought, the naivety and the negative sides of that adventure and heroism.

I get it. I think it had a lot to offer as a stand-alone film.

My problem with it remains that (especially following the Rise retcon about Rey's parents) that it almost feels like the middle and end of a trilogy in one film, as the middle film of a trilogy.

And while I'm not one of those "purists" who complained about the extra Jedi abilities that arose during the story, I just hated the "Leia in space" bit because it felt too goofy. And yes! It's in a movie with space nazis and star wizards. It still felt too goofy.

[Neon Ignition]

More so than Leia surviving being in space I was always more put out by Rose's sister in the opening having breathable air and full gravity in an open space ship with no sign of force fields protecting her from the vacuum of space.

Last Jedi is probably one of the most interesting entries, like DT says it has some visually mesmerising scenes but I think it falls prey mostly to trying too hard to subvert the franchises narrative tropes. It does it so many times that it actively undermines the previous film and the enjoyment of many moments such as the face off with Snoke and the final stand of Luke. They're big film defining moments that utlimately disappoint because the film isn't wasting a chance to not do the thing you expect but at the same time not stopping to think maybe doing the expected thing in that moment is the right thing to do. It's effectively, for me, the DCU entry of this trilogy to the other two's MCU's - the most interesting but least enjoyable. Especially given its main aim seems to be to deconstruct the importance of the Skywalkers when it doesn't really work because A-they're still the central focus of the saga covering this era of the canon and B-it takes little knowledge of the Star Wars canon that covers thousands of years to know it isn't all just about them

[Dogg Thang]

I think it's very interesting that Johnson was given so much leeway with all that and, on one level, I admire the execs for that. But I also think that vocal fans have a lot to answer for, even though the end result is a film that I love in spite of some things that don't land for me. You can see even here that many people loved The Force Awakens. Nobody is going to claim it's a perfect film but it's fun, has great adventure, great characters and it's just really enjoyable. But there was a loud vocal minority of Star Wars geeks shouting that it was too familiar. That it was just a retread. That it offered nothing original.

So when Johnson came in with a story that surprising, willing to take many risks, willing to dig much deeper, I can see why some people behind the scenes thought they were probably about to give fans exactly what they asked for.

Because it is. And that's the problem with a lot of fan feedback - fans don't know what they want. And honestly what they say they want is usually not what they actually want. So this was a case of "give us something different! No wait, not like that". And we'll see that exact same thing play out when we get to Rise only worse, because much of that movie is about pandering to Star Wars fans on the depths of reddit.

I love it for being as interesting as it is, as thoughtful as it is and as beautiful as it is. I love all that. But I can't disagree with your take, NI, that while it might be the most interesting, that doesn't make it enjoyable in terms of what usually brings people to Star Wars.

[wakka]

Great comments above as usual.

I feel conflicted about The Last Jedi. On an intellectual level, I respect that it subverts expectations while remaining true to the characters. That is a cool, laudable thing. And it looks great. The blood red sand? Awesome. Red room? Love it. The new Force powers were excellent too. They were a thousand times cooler and more interesting than the bastardised Wuxia nonsense Lucas had us watching in the prequels.

But I didn't actually enjoy it very much. That's partly a failing on my part, I think, because emotionally I want to get this certain feeling from Star Wars, and this film didn't give it to me. But also I think there's this kind of contrariness to the film, where it makes such a point of subverting expectations that it actually gets in the way of telling the most satisfying story.

It's a film I do respect, but not a film I actually like. And that's partly me and partly the film itself.

Because it is. And that's the problem with a lot of fan feedback - fans don't know what they want. And honestly what they say they want is usually not what they actually want. So this was a case of "give us something different! No wait, not like that". And we'll see that exact same thing play out when we get to Rise only worse, because much of that movie is about pandering to Star Wars fans on the depths of reddit.

Yep - I feel like both 8 and 9 are victims to different extents of this fan pandering (9 obviously to a much, much greater extent). It's creative cancer.

[Cassius_Smoke]

7, 8 & 9 are like those 'combination man' drawing games. Ep7, someone drew the feet and folded the paper, ep8 someone else did the body and ep9 the head. Each one may have its pluses and cons but combined its a ****ing mess.

[Neon Ignition]

Movie 11 - Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker
The most recent entry and the supposedly final one in the central line of the franchise. This film proved equally controversial as the one before it as it lurched hard to give viewers the same kind of action led adventure experience that had gone down so well with Force Awakens but also to veer the narrative back towards the direction of that film rather than embrace the decisions made in Last Jedi. The result is what is considered to be a scrappy film with many taking issues with the villain choice also.



Is Rise of Skywalker a crushing and miserable end to the existing Star Wars canon or is it a worthy culmination to the two films that came before it or the ten that pave the rest of the story?

[Dogg Thang]

I think Rise of Skywalker is a total mess. He basically Star Trek Into Darknessed it. He wasted so much time undoing The Last Jedi in really clunky, awkward ways, pandering to the worst fans at the expense of every single one of the characters (Rose is an obvious one but, really, all the main characters got shafted here). He wasted time getting his buddies into needless roles, bulking up the movie. The resurrection of the Emperor made zero sense and was a total distraction while completely taking away from not just what The Last Jedi set up, but even Abram's own Force Awakens. The movie zips from bit to bit with almost no connection and just moves so fast as if, like with Into Darkness, he didn't want to give you a moment to consider what nonsense it is.

It's a movie of wasted opportunities. Everything interesting (even set up within the movie itself, like the reveal with Hux) was snatched away and rendered pointless.

And it really made zero sense. I mean, they didn't actually defeat the First Order in it. Were we supposed to not notice that? And the most important part of the movie (gathering the allies) happened off screen with no sense of how that possibly could have been achieved. It's a total, utter mess.

And yet... I enjoyed a lot of it. It's got some great moments and even with some godawful lines the actors do their best with them. Driver is fantastic. Even though the Emperor shouldn't have been in it, he was great. The movie looks absolutely gorgeous. And while I know they didn't work for everyone, I totally loved the new Force powers. That bit where Rey passes the lightsaber to Kylo Ren was amazing for me. I totally loved that moment. It's a shame it carried zero weight because who even were the Knights of Ren but, still, the moment itself was wonderful. So in spite of it being a mess, I enjoyed it. It entertained me. And I guess that's what's important in the end.

[Neon Ignition]

Reading your post I felt like I was waiting and waiting and then the key bit hit, about you enjoying it. That's exactly how I felt when I came out of the cinema. Now, admittedly I haven't seen it since that first viewing and even then things like Chewbacca's supposed death grated due to how poorly handled they were but I came out with a proper buzz about the experience. It felt like a roller coaster experience, it has ups and downs and is an utterly shallow experience yet thrilling at the same time. It's a film of moments - Rey slicing the fighter, Kylo and Han, Lando and the Falcon, everything with the Emporer. Nothing cohesively works and yet it rattles along and gives enough fun and fan moments to piece it together and I think much of it comes down to a couple of lynch pins:

1 - It, like Force Awakens, remembers that the franchise is just simple adventure films ultimately so it doesn't overreach that aim
2 - Last Jedi might have smartly subverted the narrative of the franchise but it did so meaning no matter what form Episode IX took there was absolutely no way to culminate and satisfyingly pay everything off
3 - It rested on Rey who was the central character but had been completely deconstructed into being of no importance so why would the audience care

Episode IX is a reaction to all this which is why I can easily forgive things like the Emporer because there's no huge reason why it's an issue he's in it. The previous film killed Snoke in a very dismissive way and Kylo was never anything approaching a convincing villain so this film opens with an immense void and there's no way anyone would care about the bad guy unless it was someone relevent. The Emporer fixes that problem, his fall in Return of the Jedi is an inconclusive way to kill him off given Luke survived similar the film before and his resurrection efforts is a natural evolution of what the prequels explained his aims were too. It means when he is ultimately defeated by Rey the struggle and sacrifice is infinitely more satisfying that the original trilogy's ending despite the clunky set up. There are issues, Finn and Poe still aren't best served by the film but in general it might not be critically a success story but it's fun and I'd choose to watch it again over at least 7 of the other 10 films just for that reason.

It doesn't deal with the First Order though, neither (I think) does it explicitly rule out the Emporer trying another resurrection but as the audience has never asked for that I guess it doesn't matter.

The biggest failing though is probably on Disney/Lucasfilms part. The errors of the trilogy and how it was handled was their fault and all too obviously happening in front of them. I feel like after Last Jedi as well it's all too obvious that they should have abandoned the trilogy model. Making a fixed trilogy no matter what was such a misguided attempt to stick to an accidental tradition and it compromised the films massively. Allowing Episode IX to more naturally set up its plot points and sew things from Force Awakens and Last Jedi in a better form would have made for a much better way to tell the same story but have the breathing room to let the whole thing culminate with a pay off in an Episode X.

[Dogg Thang]

The previous film killed Snoke in a very dismissive way and Kylo was never anything approaching a convincing villain so this film opens with an immense void and there's no way anyone would care about the bad guy unless it was someone relevent. .

I agree with most of your post but this is one part I don't agree with. Because I feel The Last Jedi left us with a really interest question moving into the next movie: what happens with the First Order, essentially the Empire because it's the same thing, when the leader, the person at the very top, is the emotional, juvenile, reactive, conflicted yet powerful Kylo Ren? For me, that's a million times more interesting than immediately demoting him yet again and, in doing so, recreating Return of the Jedi's dynamic. I felt we got a backwards move that wasn't needed because the move forward move was infinitely more interesting and something we hadn't seen yet. Kylo Ren was more interesting than Snoke. More interesting that Palpatine. He didn't need a master.

Oh I also disagree with Rey having been deconstructed in The Last Jedi. Do you mean by that simply that she didn't have powerful parents?

[wakka]

Unlike you guys, I didn't enjoy this. I didn't hate it, but I just felt kind of resigned. You blast through one scene after another and nothing feels like it has any real significance or resonance. There's a lot of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

It's a bummer. I don't go to see Star Wars expecting it to be Ibsen, but I do expect to be thrilled and get The Feels. I did not get that with this. There's no roughage, it's all just cake, and by the end you're full but you feel kinda queasy. In fact it's not even cake. It's just icing. Just a big bowl of icing that's been made with too much sugar.