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Retro Arena: 32-bit era consoles

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    #31
    The N64 may not have delivered pin-sharp RGB visuals but at least it brought the draw-distance, which meant huge landscapes with procedural rendering to keep things running smooth.

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      #32
      Originally posted by dataDave View Post
      The N64 may not have delivered pin-sharp RGB visuals but at least it brought the draw-distance
      *pictures Turok, spits coffee*

      The N64 worked great for Mario. After that, it was like being really short-sighted and having vaseline smeared directly onto your eyeballs while living in a world where everyone was made out of a single unfolded cardboard box.

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        #33
        Originally posted by dataDave View Post
        The N64 may not have delivered pin-sharp RGB visuals but at least it brought the draw-distance, which meant huge landscapes with procedural rendering to keep things running smooth.
        The likes of Bug Bumble and Turok have some of the worst drawn-in and fogging of that generation imo, never mind they also had the terrible trade mark N64 washed out, blurry display and poor frame rate.

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          #34
          Bug Bumble looking **** doesn't mean that Goldeneye (among many others) didn't have revolutionary draw-distance.

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            #35
            PlayStation obviously.

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              #36
              Originally posted by dataDave View Post
              Bug Bumble looking **** doesn't mean that Goldeneye (among many others) didn't have revolutionary draw-distance.

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                #37
                Originally posted by QualityChimp View Post
                You realise those are pre-release, right? It never looked that bad.



                This kind of stuff technically wasn't possible elsewhere at the time, even on the PC.

                Probably the closest you'll get is PSX corridor-shooter Alien Resurrection:



                You won't find any outdoor scenes there, though.
                Last edited by dataDave; 19-03-2019, 11:38.

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                  #38
                  After comparing those two videos I'm remembering just how special a feeling it was to actually be able to look down a long corridor at all without segments of the walls popping in every few feet. The N64 was a massive leap forwards in terms of 3D, especially landscapes.

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                    #39
                    Originally posted by Team Andromeda View Post
                    I think the biggest issue for Saturn 3D games was the lack of Hardware support for a 3D transparent polygon, which made so many PS games look a lot better, just becasue of its lovely transparent effects.
                    Coders had to have an old school approach to the Saturn and really get down to metal. They also had to work out how to utilise two processors efficiently. So it certainly wasn't an easy machine to work with, especially when Sega's libraries and support weren't great. But some clever coders managed to push the Saturn and deliver excellent 3D experiences.

                    Originally posted by Team Andromeda View Post
                    Other than Mario 64 and a couple of games like Wave Race I found N64 3D to be the biggest letdown with a horrible blurry, washed out display, super low texturs and screen res and so many games not even hit 30 fps, never mind 60 fps.
                    The only game that managed to overcome the terrible image quality of the N64 is Mario 64, which has always looked beautifully cartoony and vibrant. Away from that pivotal game, most N64 games really suffered from Vaseline-vision.

                    I had an NTSC machine with an RGB mod, but most games still looked depressingly blurry and dull.

                    The N64 games that I have fond memories of when it comes to visuals are:

                    Mario 64
                    Wave Race 64
                    GoldenEye
                    Star Fox 64
                    Mario Kart 64
                    Diddy Kong Racing
                    1080 Snowboarding
                    Pilotwings 64
                    Banjo-Kazooie
                    Ocarina of Time


                    Most N64 games are torture for the eyes.




                    Originally posted by Dogg Thang View Post
                    Yep, I think you're right. And even presented in a pretty terrible form here, it was still a really enjoyable game. I think you're right - had the PAL conversion been better, the early perception could have been quite different.
                    All the fanfare at the time was surrounding Ridge Racer and how incredible it was on the PS1. At the same time, you had people saying Daytona on the Saturn was ugly and quite a let down graphically. So right from the off the PlayStation had a lot of positivity, whereas the Saturn had an air of negativity. That was the overall vibe in the West.

                    Sega also created negativity with the Saturn's price point[£399 - $399] next to the PlayStation which was £100/$100 cheaper and surrounded by positivity from journos, developers, and publishers. Everything was against Sega in Western markets.

                    Of course, if Daytona had been technically better, it might have been enough to convince people Sega's machine was worth investing in, even at a higher price point. I'm sure the Saturn would have sold quite a bit better in the West if Daytona had received glowing reviews across the board.

                    Sega, in the West, didn't recover from the first year problems that helped the PlayStation to be even more attractive. I think a lot of gamers didn't have to think twice when it came to deciding between the PlayStation and Saturn.


                    Originally posted by dataDave View Post
                    The N64 may not have delivered pin-sharp RGB visuals but at least it brought the draw-distance, which meant huge landscapes with procedural rendering to keep things running smooth.
                    It was very good tech for games like Mario 64. It also suited GoldenEye, which wouldn't have worked as well on the PS1.

                    The N64 tech certainly had strong points, but the image quality really was too blurry. Too many games look extremely ugly and felt like the developer struggled to get them running.

                    So as much as I really enjoyed the N64 back in the day, I can easily appreciate why so many people don't like the machine. The PS1 & Saturn gave people more of what they wanted, without the blur-o-vision that plagued Nintendo's machine.

                    Actually, an N64 Mini with the blurriness removed might make lots of people happy. But maybe some people have nostalgia for a blurry N64 through RF or Composite.
                    Last edited by Leon Retro; 19-03-2019, 11:55.

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                      #40
                      Originally posted by Leon Retro View Post
                      It was very good tech for games like Mario 64. I think it also suited GoldenEye, which wouldn't have worked as well on the PS1.
                      As well as every other game on your list, and any other game designed exclusively for the hardware. None of which could have performed any where near as well on a PlayStation.

                      Quake 64 is a good benchmark.

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                        #41
                        Originally posted by QualityChimp View Post

                        I mean, I'd raided tombs with Lara, then when I played Ocarina of time, everything was so muddy and brown and foggy.



                        Textures like that are likely the reason Nintendo reached for the Vaseline.

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                          #42
                          Originally posted by dataDave View Post
                          As well as every other game on your list, and any other game designed exclusively for the hardware. None of which could have performed any where near as well on a PlayStation.

                          Quake 64 is a good benchmark.
                          Well, I did say the tech has "strong points", which were utilised well in a small amount of games that were designed specifically for the N64.

                          I think I'm trying to be very objective, simply because I recognise - and appreciate to some degree - why so many people really dislike the N64. I really did have a great time with the machine from 1996-2000. Mario 64 really was groundbreaking and incredible. I was obsessed with Wave Race -- and still love playing it. I thought RARE did great things with the N64. F-Zero X, despite the basic visuals, is a joy to play. Star Fox 64 is a great game in all areas.

                          You also mention 'Doom 64', which was very impressive at the time. It was an N64 game that made you think "Why can't all N64 games look this good?"

                          I think the machine tended to attract a lot of less talented devs and publishers who wanted to take advantage of N64 gamers having 'slim pickings' when it came to the amount of games being released.

                          So, I think you're quite right to say GoldenEye was extremely impressive and couldn't have worked anywhere near as well on the PlayStation. The same with all the other games I listed. To make attractive N64 games that felt good to play, a developer had to really have talent and dedication. It's a shame that so few did, It's why I haven't bought an N64 Everdrive, because there are only around 20 games that I'm interested in playing. I own most of them.

                          I bought a de-blur N64 a few months ago, which gives a nice level of sharpness to the visuals. But it doesn't make all the ugly games look better. Looking at that generation overall, 3D visuals were usually quite ugly in some way. 3D games on the Saturn & PlayStation can look very rough and raw, whereas N64 games tend to look blurry and overly smoothed out. It's simply a fact that 3D tech at the time was far from ideal. I personally spend far more time with 2D games for the PlayStation and Saturn, simply because many still look attractive. Most 3D games from that era look like a mess. Although, there are some that manage to stand up quite well.
                          Last edited by Leon Retro; 19-03-2019, 12:22.

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                            #43
                            Originally posted by dataDave View Post
                            After comparing those two videos I'm remembering just how special a feeling it was to actually be able to look down a long corridor at all without segments of the walls popping in every few feet. The N64 was a massive leap forwards in terms of 3D, especially landscapes.

                            I think you're being a little selective tbh, I saw quite a lot of option sections with Exhumed and Duke 3D on the Saturn. Quite a lot of N64 games had horrible fogging and let's also remember the dreadful frame rates in so many N64 games, the frame rate in Perfect Dark 64 was shocking
                            Last edited by Team Andromeda; 19-03-2019, 12:20.

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                              #44
                              Originally posted by Leon Retro View Post
                              Coders had to have an old school approach to the Saturn and really get down to metal. They also had to work out how to utilise two processors efficiently. So it certainly wasn't an easy machine to work with, especially when Sega's libraries and support weren't great. But some clever coders managed to push the Saturn and deliver excellent 3D experiences.:
                              To use machine code. Like Dave Perry (not the animal lol) said to programme on the Saturn was to learn the machine, to on the PS was the read a book on C . It wasn't just SEGA's In-House studios that used the Saturn, some of the smallest team did wonders on the system.

                              I had an NTSC machine with an RGB mod, but most games still looked depressingly blurry and dull
                              I got mine N64 with Mario 64 and Pilotwings N64 on its USA launch, it costs me a fortune and then I shelled out another £40 quid for a RGB mod and the display was still washed out and blurred

                              Only Mario 64, Yoshi Island 64 didn't seem to suffer. I still loved the N64, for me, its biggest issues was a lack of traditional shooters, the poor output of Nintendo (in terms of games made each year) and the lack of the sound chip, It was a dream system for any FPS fan and so I loved it

                              And for me, Conkers and Pilotwings N64 are 2 of the best games made in any generation

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                                #45
                                It was, but Perfect Dark wasn't the only game from that era to suffer from poor frame rates. Besides fighting games nearly all of them did. You could probably count the number of 60FPS 3D games across all platforms on one hand.

                                And of course I'm being selective. I'm trying to find the very best example of 3D on the PlayStation in order to compare it to year-1 GoldenEye on the N64.

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