Retro Arena: 32-bit era consoles

[Leon Retro]

SEGA didn't do anything fancy with transparent effects tbh, The Saturn could do 2D transparent effects no trouble through the VDP2, it was when the Transparent effect was needed to be warped around a polygon you had issues and so it was so in SEGA own games, that said Model 2 had no hardware support for transparent effects and the mesh effect had to be used quite a lot.

I was mainly referring to how Sega pushed the hardware from Virtua Fighter to Virtua Fighter 2. I remember being amazed by how more advanced VF2 was -- and also running in hi-res. Sega Rally was also an amazing surprise that made people realise the hardware was very capable.

Also, Daytona CCE is technically quite a bit better, even if the feel of the game isn't so nice.

One can get over shortcoming with early software (as seen with the PS2) the trouble with SEGA at the time was you had SEGA West all for and spending all its PR and development support on the 32X, while SEGA Japan was all for the Saturn. If SEGA had killed off the 32X, Things would have been much better, along with SOJ never letting SOA try and to develop the next-gen Sonic

It's sometimes true that a machine can have a less than stellar launch period and recover really well. But the Saturn in the West wasn't able to recover from the launch period negativity. The £399/$399 price point and talk of Daytona being disappointing next to Ridge Racer, obviously stuck in lots of people's minds and made them focus on the PlayStation. I think the media were also in love with Sony and the PS1, simply because there was so much positivity surrounding the company and its console within in the industry.

I agree that Sega in the West didn't do a good job, but the Japanese HQ also made mistakes. In the Japanese market though, there was far more interest in Virtua Fighter, 2D fighters, and shoot 'em ups. That really helped the Saturn in Japan to find success. In the West, people tended to have different expectations for 32-bit gaming, and the PlayStation was giving them far more of what they wanted. Developers, publishers and journos loving Sony's machine really sent out a clear message that the PlayStation was the 'must-have' console.

When you look at every aspect of what happened during that generation, it's easy to see why the PlayStation dominated. I would say it deserved to, even if I also have a lot of fondness for the Saturn and N64. I might have chosen the PS1 if I could have only had one machine.

[Dogg Thang]

It's often true that a machine can have a less than stellar launch period and recover really well. But the Saturn in the West wasn't able to recover from the launch period negativity.

I also think that the Mega CD and 32X histories were fresh in people's minds. There was a lack of trust there and a feeling of risk that this hardware might just get abandoned.

[Leon Retro]

I also think that the Mega CD and 32X histories were fresh in people's minds. There was a lack of trust there and a feeling of risk that this hardware might just get abandoned.

Well, there's definitely an element of truth in those things being a factor. But I really think things might have been a lot different if Daytona had received glowing reviews without any negativity. The negativity surrounding the game really was a huge thing back in the day. It was Daytona vs, Ridge Racer -- and Ridge Racer managed to win the hearts and minds of gamers. All the talk was about how incredibly close to the coin-op Ridge Racer was on the PS1.

Of course, we can now look at both games and not let the hype affect us. But at the time the 'hype' was very much focused on Ridge Racer -- and that really helped attract people to Sony's machine.

I think the Sega machine that really suffered because of a negative feeling surrounding Sega, was the Dreamcast. It was launched when the PlayStation was still thriving and impressing people with games like Driver. Lots of people must have felt apathy towards the Sega brand after the abject failure of the Saturn in the West.

So, I don't think the lack of huge success for the Mega CD and 32X really had a big effect on the failure of the Saturn. I remember people being quite excited about the Saturn prior to launch. But when Daytona failed to really impress people -- and then devs started talking about how much they preferred the PlayStation, the hype train went into overdrive for Sony's machine and that led to it dominating.

[Team Andromeda]

I was mainly referring to how Sega pushed the hardware from Virtua Fighter to Virtua Fighter 2. .

I said many a time that the flack AM#2 got over Daytona USA was the making of them and then went to overdrive to push the Saturn to insane levels. Virtual Cop is all but the Arcade game and one can never forget the 1st time you saw the Saturn High Res mode in VR Remix and then in VF II.

The £399/$399 price point and talk of Daytona being disappointing next to Ridge Racer, obviously stuck in lots of people's minds and made them focus on the PlayStation.

One can get over such issues, much like SONY did with the PS3 (high price and not a get launch line up and PS2 (where games looked worse than a lot of DC stuff) or even SEGA with the pretty crap launch software on the MD... I think the huge trouble for Saturn was that SOA/SOE thought it would cost too much and that people would go for the cheaper 32X over the Saturn, PS and N64.

SEGA was trying to support too many systems and with also the MD, Game Gear, Master System and Arcades. It was sheer madness. A SEGA just behind the Saturn could have done a hell of a lot better, not beat the PS but SEGA could have had a real go at beating the N64 IMO.

but the Japanese HQ also made mistakes

A few mistakes but other than not making Sonic Saturn game or to start development of a Sonic Saturn 3D game until 96 (ok a HUGE cock up) and not trying harder to get Square Soft on the Saturn. It was pretty hard to fault SEGA Japan. SEGA I feel had gotten used to never having Square and no one could have seen what a mess SEGA America would do with Sonic when it was entrusted to bring SONIC to the 32-Bit platforms

[dataDave]

I had the PSX from launch although I was massively underwhelmed by it until mid-to-late 1996 when things like Ridge Racer Revolution, Tekken II, WipeOut 2097, Resi, etc. started to come out. Then, just as it was hitting its stride a big brother of a friend offered to trade me for his Saturn. He was a couple of years older so he was already working and had a ton of games for it (around 20), which would have made for a much better cash-in once the N64 hit the following March. That was one decision I don't regret one bit - I absolutely fell in love with it over that Christmas and I didn't even think once about all those lucky US kids already with their N64 & Mario. I bought a few other games he was missing such as NiGHTS + 3D pad, Virtua Cop + gun (and later VC2), and of course all of the 2D fighters I could get my hands on despite the fact they were all only PAL.

I don't know WTF happened next... In early February I made a good deal to sell it all off to the guy on the market. He even came to my house and we did a proper deal and everything. He let me keep Christmas Nights as I'd hinted that it might be difficult to find again later on if I ever wanted to get another Saturn. After this I have all the cash I'd ever need for the N64. But, for some insane reason I go silly when trying to live without any gaming device and go out and buy another new PSX instead. The games? Sim City 2000, Command & Conquer, Destruction Derby 2, some other forgettable crap.

I got the N64 two weeks after it launched. From October 1995 I worked at a games rental place where we'd deliver the games to your house and the guy ran an interest-free credit scheme for buying consoles over 26 weeks as long as you rented games from him. I didn't have to rent anything of course, I just borrowed the cash from him. He didn't cover Saturn games surprisingly!! I can't remember for the life of me why he chose not to, and when speaking to many of the customers they also felt "burned" by Sega at the time. I think after the two Mega Drive expansions did far too little for too much (Another earlier trade of mine was my SNES for a Mega CD. :/ ). Maybe nobody trusted them as much because they were only (expensive) optional expansions. Actually the guy who traded me the Saturn had owned all of the Sega hardware up until that point, he was a proper Sega man - but then he finally jumped ship.

I should have bought a better TV much sooner than I actually did, as I was always gated by PAL 50hz. Getting consoles modified for imports would have made an immense difference. I didn't realise until 1999 how easy a train ride to Leeds was for import shops, mod services and even the odd arcade.

[Leon Retro]

I said many a time that the flack AM#2 got over Daytona USA was the making of them and then went to overdrive to push the Saturn to insane levels.

It's a nice port when it comes to gameplay, so it's a shame there wasn't enough time to polish it. The later CCE version looks much cleaner and nicer overall.

It's just a fact that most people were far more impressed with the Ridge Racer port. Namco really managed to give the illusion of having the arcade game in the home.

One can get over such issues, much like SONY did with the PS3 (high price and not a get launch line up and PS2 (where games looked worse than a lot of DC stuff) or even SEGA with the pretty crap launch software on the MD... I think the huge trouble for Saturn was that SOA/SOE thought it would cost too much and that people would go for the cheaper 32X over the Saturn, PS and N64.

Developing the 32X was such a bad decision. It was so misguided and down to bad management and cockiness. That's not to say it's terrible hardware, but Sega should have been fully focused on creating a 32-bit console. Sega were messing around with other things when Sony was preparing to take the console market by storm. Sony delivered elegant architecture, good development libraries, and positive support. That's one aspect of why the PlayStation managed to be such a popular machine across the gaming world.

SEGA was trying to support too many systems and with also the MD, Game Gear, Master System and Arcades. It was sheer madness. A SEGA just behind the Saturn could have done a hell of a lot better, not beat the PS but SEGA could have had a real go at beating the N64 IMO.

At least the Saturn was a big thing in Japan. It's just a shame that the machine didn't come close to rivaling the PlayStation in Western markets. It would have been great to have seen Sega really compete with Sony. Instead, the N64 managed to destroy the Saturn in the US market.

It was pretty hard to fault SEGA Japan.

We can only wonder if the Saturn would have failed in Japan if Japanese gamers weren't so keen on 2D fighters and shoot 'em ups. The Saturn managed to deliver what lots of gamers craved in Japan. But in the West, people tended to be very focused on 3D, and PlayStation had a constant supply of great 3D titles covering all genres. Publishers and developers really did fall in love with the PlayStation and fully commit to it. That love affair helped to create a strong air of positivity that inspired journos and gamers alike.

I'm a big fan of the Saturn, but when I look at how Sony delivered a machine that generated so much fanfare across the gaming world, it's easy to appreciate why it was able to trounce the competition. Sony ticked all the boxes, whereas Sega and Nintendo had issues that went against them. It's a huge shame that Sony didn't respect the PlayStation's legacy by delivering a Classic console that did the original machine justice.

[dataDave]

Sega flushed all of the goodwill they'd generated with the Mega Drive down the pan on the Mega CD and 32X. The Saturn reveal with that price tag was the courtesy flush. Everyone who had a Mega Drive migrated to PlayStation.

[Leon Retro]

I should have bought a better TV much sooner than I actually did, as I was always gated by PAL 50hz. Getting consoles modified for imports would have made an immense difference. I didn't realise until 1999 how easy a train ride to Leeds was for import shops, mod services and even the odd arcade.

Yeah, there were plenty of places that modded PAL consoles. I think a lot of gamers weren't bothered much about NTSC, 60Hz, RGB etc... But enthusiasts usually went down the import RGB route. I think that inspired publishers and developers to take notice of some people not being happy with 50Hz games, which led to the next generation having games that offered a 50Hz-60Hz option.

I remember the 60Hz thing became quite prominent during the 16-bit era, which led people to buy TVs that offered RGB Scart.

[Leon Retro]

Sega flushed all of the goodwill they'd generated with the Mega Drive down the pan on the Mega CD and 32X. The Saturn reveal with that price tag was the courtesy flush. Everyone who had a Mega Drive migrated to PlayStation.

I don't think it's that simple. I think a lot of gamers didn't see the Mega-CD or 32X as a 'must-have', so they just stuck with the standard Mega Drive which was still getting good games up until 1995.

When people started hearing about 32-bit consoles in 1994, I'm sure that lots of Mega Drive owners were interested in the Saturn. The PlayStation was also attracting lots of attention -- and that gave gamers a dilemma. When Daytona ended up receiving somewhat negative reviews -- and Ridge Racer mostly glowing reviews, it made lots of people opt for Sony's machine. Many might have thought they were taking a gamble, but the hype was very much focused on the PlayStation across the industry, and subsequently the gamble paid off. The PlayStation managed to dominate that era of gaming.

[dataDave]

I don't think it's that simple. I think a lot of gamers didn't see the Mega-CD or 32X as a 'must-have', so they just stuck with the standard Mega Drive which was still getting good games up until 1995.

When people started hearing about 32-bit consoles in 1994, I'm sure that lots of Mega Drive owners were interested in the Saturn. The PlayStation was also attracting lots of attention -- and that gave gamers a dilemma. When Daytona ended up receiving somewhat negative reviews -- and Ridge Racer mostly glowing reviews, it made lots of people opt for Sony's machine. Many might have thought they were taking a gamble, but the hype was very much focused on the PlayStation across the industry, so that gamble paid off and the machine went on to dominate the market.

It really was that simple. The Mega CD and 32X were both hardware units punted in a big way by Sega, but both ended up being expensive crap. The Saturn also launched very expensive with many reports of early games being poor - as no one I knew was willing to give the thing a try at the price they were asking... apart from the one guy who ended up trading me for my PSX. Then that was it, I was the only person I knew with a Saturn - and that included the hundreds of customers we used to deliver games to.

They could have given the Dreamcast away for free and offered all of the games at half-price and it wouldn't have made a difference.

[Leon Retro]

It really was that simple.

Well, I remember clearly remember those days, and all the factors that led to the PlayStation dominating. So as much as I can agree that you make valid points, I think the big picture is more complicated. There were many reasons why the Saturn failed and the PlayStation triumphed -- and they're not all to do with the Mega-CD & 32X.

They could have given the Dreamcast away for free and offered all of the games at half-price and it wouldn't have made a difference.

And that's because the gaming world - from devs, to journos and gamers - was in love with the PlayStation brand. Sony managed to get everything right with the PlayStation, so that positive momentum continued through to the PS2 era.

If the Saturn had launched at a more attractive price and with a more convincing port of Daytona, Sega might have managed to compete pretty well with Sony. Then the future might have been bright for the company. The failure of the Saturn in the world market cemented Sega's downfall.

[Leon Retro]

I was looking at sales figures for the US market:

Genesis: 18 million
Saturn: 1.8 million
Dreamcast: 5.5 million

Whatever the reasons were behind the failure of the Saturn, it really was a huge flop. That didn't stop more people having faith in the Dreamcast. but it's clear that Sega's failure in the 32-bit era had tarnished the brand.

Then we all know that the PS2 went on to be a huge thing -- selling 158 million units worldwide. 54 million in the US market.

[Team Andromeda]

We can only wonder if the Saturn would have failed in Japan if Japanese gamers weren't so keen on 2D fighters and shoot 'em ups. The Saturn managed to deliver what lots of gamers craved in Japan.

I think it was 3D fighters and RPG's that really helped sell the Saturn in Japan. SEGA West were just run by clueless people who thought the 32X would win the battle, based on nothing more than price and never looked to emulate what worked so well for the Mega Drive in the USA and UK. For staters I was amazed at the lack of Joe Montana game for the Saturn early in.

Sony delivered elegant architecture, good development libraries, and positive support.

None of which it did with the PS2 and PS3 and yet SONY still went on to win.

[Dogg Thang]

I was looking at sales figures for the US market:

Genesis: 18 million
Saturn: 1.8 million
Dreamcast: 5.5 million

Whatever the reasons were behind the failure of the Saturn, it really was a huge flop. That didn't stop more people having faith in the Dreamcast. but it's clear that Sega's failure in the 32-bit era had tarnished the brand.

I think your figures back up the idea that the Mega CD and 32X played a role here. If anything, the Saturn delivered much more as a system than either of those, hence a little bit (although not enough) of faith in the DC. Not saying it is the only factor, not by a long shot, but the way two expensive add-ons were dropped and unsupported said something about Sega and it wasn’t good. They seemed much more committed to the Saturn but, for this list to give an accurate impression, it needs to reflect that Sega had the Game Gear, Mega CD and 32X between one huge US success and one failure.

[Team Andromeda]

It really was that simple. The Mega CD and 32X were both hardware units punted in a big way by Sega, but both ended up being expensive crap.

The 32X wasn't that expensive really, it was just crap. The Mega CD was expensive but it was just an add-on and with sales of 4 million I doubt it was much behind the PC Engine CD-ROM2, where I see no-one call that expensive crap and its not like Nintendo didn't have its own Add-On flops like with the N64 DD and did the NES Disic drive really outsell the likes of the Mega CD?.

The main trouble with SEGA in the 32Bit era was you had SEGA being a rival to itself with a split of which system to support (the Saturn or 32X) that split it's development support for 3rd parties and retail, its PR support for the press and its In-House development support and tool set. This at a time SEGA didn't just have to face Nintendo, NEC, but also SONY.

It was sheer madness imo