Retro Arena: 32-bit era consoles

[Neon Ignition]

The thing probably most in the way of the Saturn recovering was its line up. I don't doubt it could have run something like MGS which is a good looking game for that gen but that's mostly because of the perspective it uses and how simple the geometry is, but it's mostly important that the Saturn didn't host games like it. Even if the system had had a solid launch I think it would have stumbled hard because it was mostly home to what Sega knew best and that was its arcade style experiences. I remember the reviews and coverage every time something like Virtua Cop 2 or Sega Touring arrived but these were a constant stream of arcade style experiences to a market that was already falling out of love with arcades themselves. The PS1 fed that new market of varied and meatier experiences frequently so could build on momentum easier.

The 32X and Mega CD were definitely brand eroders, they both carried one hell of a stink for Sega going into the next gen but Sony did have everything to prove coming in as a new starter also so both had their hurdles. Dreamcast was technically a solid hit for Sega, it may have only sold around 9-10m units but it always feels like people are unfair on the system classing it as a failure when that figure represents just 18 months of life the system enjoyed, its death having much more to do with the state of Sega than a reflection of the hardware. But even then, the system may have hosted arcade ports too but there was a much better marketing drive to it and more effort to push non-arcade experiences like Shenmue, Sonic Adventure etc.

[dataDave]

The 32X wasn't that expensive really, it was just crap. The Mega CD was expensive but it was just an add-on and with sales of 4 million I doubt it was much behind the PC Engine CD-ROM2, where I see no-one call that expensive crap and its not like Nintendo didn't have its own Add-On flops like with the N64 DD and did the NES Disic drive really outsell the likes of the Mega CD?

But then you're comparing experimental niche add-ons with blatantly advertised 'next-gen'-like expansions. CD-ROM2 and the 64DD were never celebrated as the second coming. The Mega CD and especially 32X were pushed very, very hard with the marketing behind them. The Mega CD on its own might have gotten away with it, but to jam the 32X in there as well was totally unnecessary and the grand majority of the Mega Drive faithful knew it. Stung once maybe, stung twice (for the very few willing to give the 32X a shot), but stung three times? Nah, no one's going for that; not even if they had arcade perfect ports of both Daytona and VF.

I honestly don't even they'd still be in the race if Sony never existed. Like you say they were competing with themselves when it came to output and support, you never even mentioned their arcade departments either which were massive; and IMO the best part of the company by far, and what I miss the most.

[Neon Ignition]

For someone at Sega, this was a cohesive effort to make the most of the Mega Drive:

[Dogg Thang]

But then you're comparing experimental niche add-ons with blatantly advertised 'next-gen'-like expansions. CD-ROM2 and the 64DD were never celebrated as the second coming. The Mega CD and especially 32X were pushed very, very hard with the marketing behind them. The Mega CD on its own might have gotten away with it, but to jam the 32X in there as well was totally unnecessary and the grand majority of the Mega Drive faithful knew it. Stung once maybe, stung twice (for the very few willing to give the 32X a shot), but stung three times? Nah, no one's going for that; not even if they had arcade perfect ports of both Daytona and VF.

Yep, they are very, very different things. The NES and N64 add-ons were barely more than urban myths in the west and did very little damage to Nintendo's perception. The 32X was pushed HARD and then dropped almost immediately with very few releases of note. And the Megardive/Mega CD/32X combo was far from cheap.

[Team Andromeda]

But then you're comparing experimental niche add-ons with blatantly advertised 'next-gen'-like expansions. CD-ROM2 and the 64DD were never celebrated as the second coming. The Mega CD and especially 32X were pushed very, very hard with the marketing behind them

C'Mon Dave Nintendo hyped up the N64 DD to usher in games one never saw before and how it's rewriteable media it was going to bring in totally new game styles and it turned out to be a pile of crap and supported for under a year. The Mega CD was just an add-on and one that sold better than a few others. The 32X was a pile of crap and not needed.

I honestly don't even they'd still be in the race if Sony never existed. Like you say they were competing with themselves when it came to output and support, you never even mentioned their arcade departments either which were massive

I would like to had seen SEGA and NEC join up to make a console, even if SONY never entered. The costs of developing console hardware after the 32bit era, which just too. But yeah SEGA had too many platforms to support and we expected to support dual 32-bit formats, Game Gear, Mega Drive and Arcade at the same time. Madness when you look at SONY who couldn't support a Handheld and console and the same for Nintendo all the same and had issues.

SEGA pretty good in the Arcades even now, HOTD V is incredible

[Team Andromeda]

The 32X was pushed HARD and then dropped almost immediately with very few releases of note. And the Megardive/Mega CD/32X combo was far from cheap.

No CD Add on a drive was cheap, be that for the consoles or the PC Dos. The 32X I get, the Mega CD was just a CD Drive add-on for the Mega Drive at the end of the day, not really that much different to the PC Eng CD-Rom2 or PC Dos and I'm sure the Mega CD started life out as a 3.5 floppy disc drive add-on for the Mega Drive. It was really meant to be a way of high storage at the lowest price for media

[Leon Retro]

I think it was 3D fighters and RPG's that really helped sell the Saturn in Japan.

Yeah, Japan loves Virtua Fighter.

I remember people who imported being quite excited about Virtua Figher, but I'm not sure if it appealed to the mass market in Europe and America.

I seem to remember Tekken getting a lot of attention, so maybe that also helped the PlayStation compete with the Saturn.

So you had Ridge Racer and Tekken, which people were really excited about. I remember seeing Ridge Racer on news programmes to show off the PlayStation.

Also, it's important to remember that there was a 9 month gap between the Japanese PS1 and USA/UK launch. So I think lots of gamers were assessing the 32-bit situation -- and maybe all the PlayStation praise and hype really convinced people to focus on Sony's machine.

So as much as I agree with the idea that lots of people felt apathetic towards Sega because of the Mega-CD and 32X, I still think lots of gamers would have been interested in the Saturn and games like Daytona. When word got around that Daytona was quite a rough port and Ridge Racer on the PS1 was said to be incredible, I really think that swayed people away from the Saturn.

The Saturn might have fared better if Daytona had received glowing reviews and the same sort of positivity surrounding Ridge Racer. We shouldn't forget how important the 'Daytona vs. Ridge Racer' situation was.

Sony definitely owe Namco a lot. The Ridge Racer series, Tekken series, Time Crisis, Soul Edge/Blade etc... really helped the PlayStation be the 'must-have' 32-bit console.

[Asura]

So as much as I agree with the idea that lots of people felt apathetic towards Sega because of the Mega-CD and 32X, I still think lots of gamers would have been interested in the Saturn and games like Daytona. When word got around that Daytona was quite a rough port and Ridge Racer on the PS1 was said to be incredible, I really think that swayed people away from the Saturn.

The Saturn might have fared better if Daytona had received glowing reviews and the same sort of positivity surrounding Ridge Racer. We shouldn't forget how important the 'Daytona vs. Ridge Racer' situation was.

Sony definitely owe Namco a lot. The Ridge Racer series, Tekken series, Time Crisis, Soul Edge/Blade etc... really helped the PlayStation be the 'must-have' 32-bit console.

From my perspective, whilst this is reasonable, I think it's a bit revisionist.

The magazines at the time (which were really the only source of info) like CVG and MAXIMUM absolutely loved Daytona USA. The mags (certainly the EMAP ones) had the impression that the Saturn would probably be Sega's finest hour, because it was going to get Sega's arcade titles. People thought that Sony, whilst making a lot of bluster, might end up being another Phillips or JVC in the gaming sphere.

The games which did it in the UK, from my perspective, were Wipeout and Tekken, but particularly Wipeout. Sony did a lot of work in the run-up to the PS1's western launch to court students and trendy folks by putting Wipeout in clubs and other fashionable events. They were staffed by people who knew how to tap into pop culture, and they played those cards exceptionally well.

Sega's response in the UK was just inept. While Sony was courting trendy folks in in the club culture with a game that featured music by big-time dance acts, Sega projected a confusing image onto the side of the Houses of Parliament of two politicians. Uncool game, uncool place, uncool subjects, uncool topic. Nothing about that stunt was worth the effort.

Not that Virtua Fighter was a bad game. Port issues aside, it was a wonderful game. But it wasn't cool. This is something [MENTION=16665]Blobcat[/MENTION] and I talk about a lot; things can be awesome while not necessarily cool, and Virtua Fighter is most definitely not cool.

The reviews of Daytona were glowing; given, they mentioned the PAL conversion, but it was early in the generation and that conversation hadn't quite kicked off to the same degree yet.

I don't think the issue was with the Saturn, or how its games reviewed in the press. The issue was one of identity, and how Sega utterly failed to craft one for the machine. Sega pitched the Saturn as the ultimate games console, but Sony reached into the future and pulled back something stronger; they pitched the PS1 as the lynchpin of a lifestyle. To own one was to be a fashionable, affluent student, part of the underground rave scene, a fan of Bruce Lee movie revival, and so on.

[Asura]

So as much as I agree with the idea that lots of people felt apathetic towards Sega because of the Mega-CD and 32X, I still think lots of gamers would have been interested in the Saturn and games like Daytona. When word got around that Daytona was quite a rough port and Ridge Racer on the PS1 was said to be incredible, I really think that swayed people away from the Saturn.

The Saturn might have fared better if Daytona had received glowing reviews and the same sort of positivity surrounding Ridge Racer. We shouldn't forget how important the 'Daytona vs. Ridge Racer' situation was.

Sony definitely owe Namco a lot. The Ridge Racer series, Tekken series, Time Crisis, Soul Edge/Blade etc... really helped the PlayStation be the 'must-have' 32-bit console.

From my perspective, whilst this is reasonable, I think it's a bit revisionist.

The magazines at the time (which were really the only source of info) like CVG and MAXIMUM absolutely loved Daytona USA. The mags (certainly the EMAP ones) had the impression that the Saturn would probably be Sega's finest hour, because it was going to get Sega's arcade titles. People thought that Sony, whilst making a lot of bluster, might end up being another Phillips or JVC in the gaming sphere.

The games which did it in the UK, from my perspective, were Wipeout and Tekken, but particularly Wipeout. Sony did a lot of work in the run-up to the PS1's western launch to court students and trendy folks by putting Wipeout in clubs and other fashionable events. They were staffed by people who knew how to tap into pop culture, and they played those cards exceptionally well.

Sega's response in the UK was just inept. While Sony was courting trendy folks in in the club culture with a game that featured music by big-time dance acts, Sega projected a confusing image onto the side of the Houses of Parliament of two politicians. Uncool game, uncool place, uncool subjects, uncool topic. Nothing about that stunt was worth the effort.

Not that Virtua Fighter was a bad game. Port issues aside, it was a wonderful game. But it wasn't cool. This is something [MENTION=16665]Blobcat[/MENTION] and I talk about a lot; things can be awesome while not necessarily cool, and Virtua Fighter is most definitely not cool.

The reviews of Daytona were glowing; given, they mentioned the PAL conversion, but it was early in the generation and that conversation hadn't quite kicked off to the same degree yet.

I don't think the issue was with the Saturn, or how its games reviewed in the press. The issue was one of identity, and how Sega utterly failed to craft one for the machine. Sega pitched the Saturn as the ultimate games console, but Sony reached into the future and pulled back something stronger; they pitched the PS1 as the lynchpin of a lifestyle. To own one was to be a fashionable, affluent student, part of the underground rave scene, a fan of Bruce Lee movie revival, and so on.

EDIT: I just googled "Sega Saturn comes out fighting" and there isn't a single image online of that stunt.

[dataDave]

[Asura]

Out of interest, what terms did you google to find it? I tapped in the phrase but didn't get a match.

Looking at it now, it's even worse than I remembered. Who thought that was a good idea?

It was a launch ad, so you have to go into it with the mindset that people don't know what a "Sega Saturn" is. Take that as a given. So what is that? Is it an endorsement for a political party? Is someone fighting something?

Sega didn't even use their more recognisable logo.

The whole thing's just a mess

[Leon Retro]

From my perspective, whilst this is reasonable, I think it's a bit revisionist.

I'm not an all-knowing megabrain. So I can't speak for everyone and say I know what every gamer and journalist thought about the Saturn vs. Playstation situation between 1994-96.

I can only express my memories, thoughts, and overall perspective on how things were at the time. Everyone will have memories and feelings regarding the topic that don't exactly tally with mine.

I think my perspective could be seen as a bit "revisionist", but it's more to do with a personal perspective and how I saw things.

When it comes to the Saturn version of Daytona, I can clearly remember feeling a sense of negativity surrounding the game from gamers and journos. Lots of people really did look at PlayStation Ridge Racer and think it was sensational next to the very rough Daytona. There was a strong feeling that Ridge Racer was an incredible port, whereas Daytona was quite disappointing in some respects.

Of course, we can now look at both games and maybe say Daytona was a more complicated game to port to a home console. Ridge Racer is certainly quite a simple game in many ways. But PlayStation Ridge Racer really did feel like having the coin-op in the home, even if it was far from arcade perfect. It was all about people's impression.

So as much as some journos saw beyond the roughness of Saturn Daytona, no-one ever said it was a beautiful looking game. The feeling that Daytona looked rough and felt a bit ropey did spread across the gaming scene and create a underlying feeling that maybe the Saturn wasn't as powerful and impressive as the PlayStation. That might have been quite unfair, because Saturn Daytona is actually a reasonable port that plays well. But we're talking about the grapevine -- and people were hearing negative things about the Saturn, whereas talk of the PlayStation was 100% positive. Public perception really can be a powerful thing that can make or break.

You're correct about Wipeout playing a significant part in the success of the PlayStation. It really helped keep the momentum strong for Sony's machine in 1995 through to 1996. The game had a cool image that really resonated with youth culture. Sony were ticking all the boxes to make sure the PlayStation had mass market appeal.

I think a lot of enthusiast/seasoned gamers might have felt a bit negative towards Sega after the Mega-CD and 32X. You also had the perception that Ridge Racer was incredible next to the decent but not sensational port of Daytona. I would also cite the 'Virtua Fighter vs. Tekken' situation as important. I think lots of gamers saw the colourful, detailed graphics in Tekken and felt it blew Virtua Fighter away. The fact that Tekken was also easier to 'pick-up-and-play' helped it to gain widespread popularity and become a 'must-have' PlayStation title. These are just a few reasons why lots of people focused on Sony's machine and decided it was cooler and maybe better than the Saturn. Sony and its partners did a brilliant job with the PlayStation and making it the 'must-have' console of that generation.

The Saturn in the West really did suffer from the early mistakes made by Sega. If Daytona had been more refined/polished -- and the machine's price point had been more attractive, then maybe more people would have jumped aboard the Sega train. I'm not so sure though. Sony managed to get everything right, so maybe Sega didn't stand a chance in the West. I don't think Sega or Nintendo expected Sony to do such a great job with its first console.

[ZipZap]

That projection really is awful!

I think all of the Saturn's western branding is quite ugly. The logo they used in the west looks really amateurish, the Japanese one is far nicer. The compact Japanese jewel cases look more sophisticated than the big ugly boxes (that again feature that ugly logo!). I think the Japanese console colour schemes look a lot better than the black consoles we got. No wonder they did much better in Japan!

With the Megadrive, Sega did a great job of appealing to teenage boys. They seemed to ignore that those teenage boys had now grown up (and that the current crop of teenagers would want to play the games their older brothers were into).

[Team Andromeda]

Sega's response in the UK was just inept. While Sony was courting trendy folks in in the club culture with a game that featured music by big-time dance acts, Sega projected a confusing image onto the side of the Houses of Parliament of two politicians. Uncool game, uncool place, uncool subjects, uncool topic. Nothing about that stunt was worth the effort.

Yep. All SONY did is copy what SEGA UK did so well in the Mega Drive days, when SEGA UK tried to appeal to the older (admittedly male) gamer, with Mega Drive pods at Cathy Dennis gigs (remember her lol) and the likes of her, quite a lot of Music and Sport star's seen with SEGA T-Shirts and playing SEGA games, along with a big push on Sports sponsorship and even ad's in the cinema and not just on the TV.

Hell I even remember SEGA Europe being on James Whale Radio TV show to try and broaden its reach. All making small steps to try and appeal to the older gamer and make SEGA that little cooler. SONY just took it to 'The Next Level' (pardon the pun)

[ZipZap]

Cathy Dennis gigs (remember her lol)

She's actually now an incredibly successful song writer!

"Can't get you out of my head", "I kissed a girl and I liked it" etc