Canon-Strike VI: Marvel Cinematic Universe

[Dogg Thang]

I actively disliked Dunst's MJ. And that was a big part of how I connected with, or didn't, these Maguire Spider-Man movies. Got to be honest, I think the first got off on the wrong foot with me for opening with how it would all be about a girl. And then it was Dunst. And the character felt kind of moany or something and then Peter got all moany too, although it would be the second movie before that really became an issue. But together, Maguire and Dunst were the things I liked least about these movies and yet it got way too much prominence.

That aside, it's a good movie and very strong for its day. I think it has been bettered time and time again in what has become a golden age for superhero movies but, back then, it was one of the best we'd seen. Willem Dafoe brought the crazy, although I wasn't mad on the Green Goblin suit design. Franco was good. The web-slinging was great. It will forever be dated by the Macy Gray introduction and movies should just never do that sort of thing but it's a good movie and great for its time.

[Neon Ignition]

The film and the ones that followed were very all in on making Peter be very punished in his life both pre and post-Spider-Man. I never warmed to MJ much across the films but that heavy handed sympathy push for Peter worked for me, largely because they always played him as being quite earnest in his beliefs and actions and the times that he wasn't there was always a clear reason why such as when Ben dies and he chases the killer or when he has the symbiote and the awful rent guy notices something's wrong.

Basically, as cheesy as the 'With Great Responsibility' line is they sold the weight of it well. The same with the overall characterisation of Peter, he's smart and shows it in discussions he has with other characters but it's in a way that highlights that the shortcomings he has are due to how being Spider-Man pulls him away from applying himself. Book smart but not in a daft way that it makes no sense that his life is the way it is. Like how MCU Peter is smart but he's tech smart and only when the plot requires it. There's zero evidence that he's capable of building, hacking or doing anything high end until the plot requires it and then suddenly he can hack a Stark suit before becoming doe eyed again.

The delivery has aged to an extent with the original but the character moments are earnt, something missing from the newer films and I'm hoping that you can't revisit the Raimi well in a satisfying way without emulating the sincerity and delivery so I'm hoping it allows them to retroactively apply a passing of the torch aspect of the MCU Peter meeting a stronger version of himself and being inspired.

With Goblin, I can't imagine he's going to get much in the way of further development. It'll just be great to see him on screen again (hopefully not killed off as quick) and potentially face his old foe again.

It's interesting too as we're seeing Marvel delve into the multi-verse now but with these films this is arguably the only moment they will have to showcase it in a fan pleaser moment way as Marvel lacks the historical content to repeat this trick meaning future multi-verse stuff would have to largely be based on newly created content, unless Sony decides to use this to attempt some sort of Spider-Man 4 or Amazing Spider-Man 3 attempt.

[Dogg Thang]

I wouldn’t be remotely surprised if Sony were having discussions right now on how to build on the multiverse hype and build a new launching platform for Spider-Man/Men based on the older movies.

[Neon Ignition]

It's a proper cheeky option too. I mean, a Maguire led fourth film prints money for itself but with Garfield that incarnation literally stopped at the point of setting up the Sinister Six so Sony could easily resurrect old plans and sell them on a loose MCU connection now

[Neon Ignition]

Movie 30 - Spider-Man 2
Following the success of the original little time was wasted bringing us a sequel and Raimi did so by making the most of having character introductions be out of the way. This meant further expanding on what Peter was sacrificing to maintain his Spider-Man persona, the aftermath of Norman's demise for Harry and the genesis of Doctor Octopus. For many years many held the film as being one of the best in the genre, some still do and it's arguable that this film shoulders much of the reasoning as to why anticipation for No Way Home is so high, despite it being 17 years old now.




Where does the film stand now in terms of franchise entries and the genre as a whole, how much of an influence should it be on MCU films given their merging?

[Asura]

The bit where he stops the train always seemed weird to me. It felt more like Superman.

[Neon Ignition]

The only bit about the train sequence that has ever grated with me is the final scene with the passengers keeping his secret, it's a cheesy thing the trilogy did more than once. Outside of that though it's iconic, always amuses how much focus goes on Maguire's expression as though he should be Blue Steeling whilst straining to his last fibre to bring a speeding train to a halt. The key bit is how much more this works compared to its counterpart with the ferry in Homecoming that just falls flat by comparison.

To this day Spider-Man 2 for me encapsulates how to get a SM film right and is insanely superior to the last few entries.

[Dogg Thang]

I think some of Spider-Man 2 is fantastic and Doc Ock is brilliant. But Peter is so totally moany and miserable through much of the movie that he totally lost me. He lacked what charm he had in the first movie and I just didn't need to see Peter Parker miserable for so much of this movie or any movie. And again all tied into the Dunst, who I could have done without. I actively dislike Peter in this movie. So I've only ever watched it once back in the day.

But I remember thinking the action was pretty great.

[Asura]

Doc Ock is brilliant.

My observation of the Raimi movies is despite whatever people think of them, this seems pretty universal.

[Neon Ignition]

Yep, the film throws a lot of misery at him but it's largely contained within the first half. The MJ stuff is a bit much because she's still not all that likeable a character but you also have the burden stuff relating to Harry, his college failure, inability to maintain his job due to saving people, money issues etc. It's a lot but I'm fine with it because it's not done for the sake of it, it all feeds into his power loss and then his life turning around because he lets the responsibilities of being Spider-Man go. The two reboots never really go into this stuff either so in hindsight it marks it out here and I feel Parker works best when an underdog.

The key thing with Doc Oc and Raimi is that Raimi always took the stand that a villain should be relatable. He gravitated to and made a point of highlighting that his villains weren't simply evil, there's always a reasoning behind their actions or a tint of tragedy and it's notable that the villain across all three films that fails to make an impression the most is the one that was forced on him.

[cutmymilk]

If Marvel manage to include the 70s Japanese Spider-Man in the multiverse I would be very impressed.

Edit: I was kinda joking but this was already done recently in the comics! https://www.theverge.com/2015/1/12/7...reaming-marvel

[Dogg Thang]

Apparently he will be in Spider-Verse 2.

[cutmymilk]

Tremendous. I didn't know Toho made these either. Maybe I should give them a better look. I had a DVD with a few episodes on back when the first Raimi film was released.

[Neon Ignition]

Movie 31 - Spider-Man 3
Sony had a well regarded hit major franchise meaning only one option was on the table - interfere with the prize winning formula! The studio forced Raimi to fold in Venom into a plot that was already aiming to focus on Sandman and to resolve the Harry Osborne arc, this lead to the entry least loved of the three. Despite this there are things fans love about the film and it largely brought the arc to a close. It was also easily the most successful entry leading Sony to go all in on interfering with the fast-tracked Spider-Man 4, a push that would result in Raimi and the cast walking away and the entire franchise coming to a premature end.



Did Spider-Man 3 leave the trilogy in a solid place and what story elements would be interesting to see revisited with this incarnations return within the MCU?

[Neon Ignition]

SM3 is a strange one as if you dissect its parts it's clear that all of the weak elements directly relate to Venom and Raimi's outright disinterest in the character. Remove him and you'd have a sequel that was not that dissimilar to the second film. Sandman is done well and just doesn't get the breathing room he needs and the action in it is well done too. It's one of those instances where the film is a clear step down on its predecessors but isn't worthy of the bad reputation it carries either.

The trailers for No Way Home seem to suggest that even if Sandman is the one from this film then he'll always be in sand form (I'm kind of expecting NWH's Sandman to be a different universes version) and I doubt there'll be the remotest reference to this Venom. The biggest takeaway will be how the film see's Harry die for Peter and that might play into Norman when he potentially discovers what happened to his son, that and the life Peter and MJ have together from the end of this film through to the modern day.