Canon-Strike VI: Marvel Cinematic Universe

[Neon Ignition]

We're one month away from the release of Avengers: Endgame which, not counting if the companies involved decide to roll in other existing films in future, will be the twenty second movie bringing to a close a saga that will have unfolded across just over ten years. It's become a model for imitators with very few pulling off the same trick themselves and it's something never really succeeded at before. For this sixth Canon-Strike thread we're not going to review the films as such or have to unfold a complicated timeline, instead each day a new MCU movie will become the focus, in release order, as we look over what worked and what didn't as well as the details of each entries plot and their contribution to the universe, or lack of.

The Marvel Cinematic Universe

In some regards Marvel views the next film as an ending, certainly what we know of the films scheduled beyond it suggests a line is being drawn in the sand with long standing characters not receiving new entries should they survive the next encounter or not.





And this isn't complete.
Tomorrow we'll start at the beginning but in the meantime feel free to more broadly discuss whether you feel the MCU represents top tier cross franchise storytelling or whether you find the overall arc to be fairly redundant in the end

[Neon Ignition]

Movie 01 - Iron Man
The genesis point for the MCU and the moment Iron Man stepped up to the top tier of superheroes. It pretty much goes without saying how well cast Downey Jr was for the role of Stark and the film, as far as memory serves me, avoids any wider MCU world building except for the post-credits scene with Fury that in hindsight barely offered anything beyond what we normally get where it not for a chunk of the audience already being aware of Marvel's intentions. The film does contain a few easter egg references to the wider universe though including Captain America's shield and a schematic in the credits for War Machine but it's all very restrained in lining with the film being an origin for both the character and the entire MCU.



Looking back, how good a job at establishing the franchise and universes canon do you feel Iron Man did and how does it hold up in light of what has developed since?

[Dogg Thang]

The other thing Iron Man did was set a template for most of their origin films. It's amazing and maybe a little unsettling how similar so many of them are. Person gets powers, fights double of themselves. That's very reductive but the character journeys are all very similar within that and they're still at it all the way up to Ant-Man. I guess it works.

But yeah, Iron Man was a really good movie and Downey Jr carried it brilliantly. I have a suspicion that a lesser actor could have buried the MCU then and there.

[Neon Ignition]

I do wonder how much discussion went into the tone and set up of Iron Man given how consistent those things are across the MCU. The main pre-MCU films that closest match them are the original Spider-Man trilogy so I'd be curious whether those films acted as some kind of unofficial template when creating Iron Man

[Neon Ignition]

Movie 02 - The Incredible Hulk
The black sheep of the MCU as things stand, this second film is often overlooked due to the breaks from it that the wider universe has made since its release but it plays a pretty key role in setting up several world building elements and the use of nods to other films. The film deviates from the other MCU films due to the obvious reasons i.e the recasting of Banner and subsequent redesign of Hulk (I still prefer the design in this film). We see the Stark logo a couple of times as Starks weapons remain in circulation and there's the post-credits scene with Stark himself. But the film itself is referenced multiple times within other films; from Stark watching footage from it during his briefing with Coulson in Avengers, Banner reference his fight with Abomination in the same film and a Marvel One Shot using the films events to explain some wider plot holes to General Ross returning in Civil War/Infinity War and even a reference to Abominations continued imprisonment in Alaska during Agents of Shield. It's a very simple film but one that does a fair bit of world building in its lean runtime and gives us what will likely be the only Hulk entry they ever make.



Often set aside by MCU viewers, is The Incredible Hulk redundant to the journey the series has taken in the last decade?

Looking back, how good a job at establishing the franchise and universes canon do you feel Iron Man did and how does it hold up in light of what has developed since?

[Dogg Thang]

As you say, the film does tie into the larger Marvel universe in many ways so, if not for the recasting (which should really be considered as both Banner and Hulk), this wouldn't sit apart in any way at all. It fits right in with the hero vs another version of the hero too and shares a lot of the Iron Man progression. It's very much just another Marvel movie but one that lost its lead actor.

One interesting thing with this is that, unlike so many superhero films before it, they didn't feel the need to get into the origin and instead just ran it as an opening sequence montage if I remember correctly... which maybe I don't...

It's a decent film. Not fantastic but not bad. I liked what Norton brought to it but he had a real downer feeling (not Downey feeling) and Ruffalo brought more fun to the role that suited better where the Marvel films were going by the time they got to Avengers.

[QualityChimp]

I've mentioned before that I really like the editing style of Ang Lee's "Hulk", it's the only hero film that seems to be inspired by the comics and the editing has a pace like reading the pages of a comic.

I know that's not what we're discussing here, but it's a pretty uneventful film that doesn't get much love, but I thought that deserves some acknowledgement.

[Dogg Thang]

Looks like Command & Conquer.

[QualityChimp]

Looks like Command & Conquer.

So's your face.

[Neon Ignition]

I couldn't get on with the older Hulk film, there are some interesting elements to it but it comes together into too much of a chore. The Incredible Hulk feels like a direct response to it and in doing so is overly lean and simplistic.

Probably the most interesting lineage for the film is how we're effectively having to see its sequel narratives played out slowly over the course of other characters films which I can't think of ever happening in film elsewhere before. We know Ross loses focus on Banner and rises up the ranks a bit more in light of the wider threats the US faces now, Betty is a big question mark beyond the Russo's confirming she got dusted by Thanos and we have Banner's slow arc seeing him gain more control and live out a simplistic version of Planet Hulk. There's never much chatter about the fate of Hulk post Avengers: Endgame but assuming he survives I think I know where I'd like to see him next utilised.

Given the current Spider-Man films make use of MCU movie connections (Stark in Homecoming, Fury in Far From Home) I'd have Banner/Hulk return to New York in Spider-Man 3 and buddying up with Peter for a film ala Ragnarok. Whilst Peter faces a new main threat they could tie events in with The Leader who was set up way back in The Incredible Hulk and use that set up to also deliver on Red Hulk. It provides Spider-Man its usual strong MCU connection whilst wrapping up existing threads for Hulk.

[QualityChimp]

There's a licensing thing about Hulk not being allowed his own film, if I'm not mistaken?

[Neon Ignition]

Disney can make a Hulk solo movie but Universal has first refusal on distribution rights so because The Incredible Hulk didn't make tons of $$$ Disney doesn't think there'd be enough in it for them if they have to share proceeds with Universal. Stupidly that deal with Universal lasts till the end of time so there'll never be a Hulk movie for Ruffalo.

[Dogg Thang]

Yep. It's unfortunate. But they can keep on doing what they did with Thor and put Hulk stories into other movies. I wonder how far they can go with that? Like, could they make Leonard the Civilian about a guy called Leonard who meets the Hulk and then a bad guy appears and the Hulk has a big adventure and I'm sure Lenny makes another appearance somewhere near the end.

[QualityChimp]

Ha ha ha, I'm picturing the poster now...

Leonard meets
THE HULK

[Neon Ignition]

Movie 03 - Iron Man 2
The MCU's third film and first sequel attempted to take the Demon in the Bottle storyline of Stark's alcoholism and to do the Disney friendly version which reduces that down to instead being Stark partying too much because he's stressed about his failing health. The film is framed as looking at the fallout of the original's closing scene where Tony publically outs himself as Iron Man. With his identity now known he faces calls from the US Military to hand over his tech whilst former rivals band together having recreated his tech. As a set up it's a little busy but it makes sense and lends itself well to explaining why Shield is becoming more involved and why bad guys tech steps up in line with Stark whilst also opening the door for some MCU world building. The film lacks the clarity of purpose the original had though and is largely considered to be in the lower tiers of the MCU's catalogue, difficult second album syndrome. There are wider MCU nods but they're largely repeats of the ones in the first film, the biggest addition being Black Widow. Canonically Iron Man 2 doesn't seem to add too much for Stark, largely setting him back so he can end the film back where he started it. The arrival of Widow and the inclusion of War Machine are mostly the lasting contributions here.



Is Iron Man 2 disposable when it comes to Stark and the MCU's canon?