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Europe IV: The Final Hour

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    Yep. And this is one of the sad things about that narrative for me and the fact that, for some, it has worked - it requires people to believe that this is if, this is as good as it gets. It is a horridly negative world view that people take and make a part of themselves. How little some must think of themselves and their neighbours and their communities that this is okay?

    It’s not okay. And this is why the ‘both sides’ things bugs me no end. Because it’s not true. You only have to look even in the last few days of some of the things that have been said. Johnson’s IQ and equality speech, or about immigrants calling the U.K. their home like it’s a terrible thing and so on. Just in the last few days, never mind weeks months or years. It’s dehumanising and dangerous. No other side is doing this. No other side is flat out cartoon bad guy. The both sides thing itself is a defeatist false idea, like Stockholm Syndrome - don’t leave the bunker because it’s just as bad out in the real world. The suffering here is better than the alternative.

    It’s not. It’s simply not.

    Even if they did seem much closer, much nearer to being equivalents, as has been noted, the Tories have had nine years to make a better country. Only if you feel they have succeeded should anyone consider voting for them again. Only if they have made things better not just for you but for others should they be real contenders. And have they? Take any other alternative. Vote Lord Buckethead if you have to.

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      Originally posted by Cassius_Smoke View Post
      My mother in law is voting Tory because 'get brexit done'. I am despair.
      They've been saying that for 3yrs.... Why would anyone trust them to do better after an election? If you want brexit done, vote brexit party...

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        My left shoulder is a bit dicky so I’m gonna amputate the arm. I’m sure I’ll be able to get a better arm at some point. I mean I haven’t found one that’s available but I reckon just get this one gone and worry about getting another, better one AFTER this one is amputated. Just get it gone.

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          Originally posted by Dogg Thang View Post
          Yep. And this is one of the sad things about that narrative for me and the fact that, for some, it has worked - it requires people to believe that this is if, this is as good as it gets. It is a horridly negative world view that people take and make a part of themselves. How little some must think of themselves and their neighbours and their communities that this is okay?

          It’s not okay. And this is why the ‘both sides’ things bugs me no end. Because it’s not true. You only have to look even in the last few days of some of the things that have been said. Johnson’s IQ and equality speech, or about immigrants calling the U.K. their home like it’s a terrible thing and so on. Just in the last few days, never mind weeks months or years. It’s dehumanising and dangerous. No other side is doing this. No other side is flat out cartoon bad guy. The both sides thing itself is a defeatist false idea, like Stockholm Syndrome - don’t leave the bunker because it’s just as bad out in the real world. The suffering here is better than the alternative.

          It’s not. It’s simply not.

          Even if they did seem much closer, much nearer to being equivalents, as has been noted, the Tories have had nine years to make a better country. Only if you feel they have succeeded should anyone consider voting for them again. Only if they have made things better not just for you but for others should they be real contenders. And have they? Take any other alternative. Vote Lord Buckethead if you have to.
          Aye, things can absolutely be better. It took a decade of deep cuts to get us here, it doesn't have to stay this way.

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            Originally posted by Cepp View Post
            I read that article, and I just see a man who's content with the status quo. He acknowledges the suffering going on but isn't willing to vote to do something about it.

            I like his framing by the way. 'Hard left', 'Venezuela', doubting their (Corbyn's) 'commitment to democracy'... Come on, Johnson tried to force Brexit through by proroguing parliament ffs. I've never seen such a flagrant disregard for British democrocy before this government came into power.

            Also, I'll take rail nationalisation over catching another First Northern train any day of the week.
            That depends on what doing something about it involves. Making things worse is what I think Labour are going to do. As has been pointed out there not going to get anywhere near as much as they think they are out of the top 5% for their enourmous spending spree and that money can move. Have you seen some of McDonnell comments on Venuzuela, Mao, Hugo Chavez? Have you seen the pictures at the rallies he speaks at?
            Download this stock image: London, UK. 1st May, 2019. John Martin McDonnell British Labour Party politician the Shadow Chancellor of the Exchequer the Member of Parliament for Hayes and Harlington. Mayday rally in Trafalgar Square. Credit: JOHNNY ARMSTEAD/Alamy Live News - T6GF16 from Alamy's library of millions of high resolution stock photos, illustrations and vectors.


            These Marxists maniacs should've gone at the last election and then maybe they'd have a better chance this time. The Lib Dems don't seem to be doing well. Where did it go so wrong for them?

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              Well 163 economists and the IMF disagree with you fella. They back the Marxist maniacs.

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                The fear around Labours plans is nothing compared to the rampant and definite corruption of the Tories at this point. Corbyn getting a majority and being able to deliver all these promises is already out of the question, voting for Labour at this point is to contribute to the potential of a minority power share for the party where many of their ambitions are going to be heavily restricted by the other parties and that arrangement itself would likely collapse within a year once Brexit was finalised one way or another.

                I tend to approach how I vote on a case by case basis, depending on where we're at with things but right now voting for the Tories feels like the US voting for Trump because Biden looks 'a bit dodgy'.

                Two poor options sure but one is the embodiment of all wrongs and it's not the one in power currently that's the one to be allied with for help.

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                  Originally posted by Shoju View Post
                  and that money can move.
                  Maybe... But do we have anything to lose? If getting people to pay fair tax causes them to leave the country, should us normal people really care whether or not they stay? Maybe they can **** off to Monaco.

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                    Originally posted by prinnysquad View Post
                    Well 163 economists and the IMF disagree with you fella. They back the Marxist maniacs.
                    Left leaning economists and academics that are expected to back Labour. If you gathered up all the economists that opposed Labour's manifesto I wonder what number that would be? The IFS have said their going to have to tax a lot more than just the top 5% to support their spending. Martin Wolf chief economics commentator at the FT there a former Labour supporter and highly critical of the Tories gave his reasons why he can't vote Labour. They sound pretty logical to me.
                    There's more scnearios here from the FT and a view from a range of economists
                    Forecasters diverge widely over prospects for recession or growth as result emerges on Friday

                    None of the outcomes sound good. Some of the issues with Labour and it's anti business stance are again brought up under the Labour minority and Majority scenarios.

                    Whatever you or I think though Labour are unlikely to win. I heard one life long supporter of Labour quoted on the news as saying he would never vote for a communist. Then there's Shadow health secretary Jon Ashworth comments on his leader Jeremy Corbyn.
                    The shadow health secretary says he was "joshing" in a secret recording leaked by a Tory friend.

                    They need a cabinet and leader that can actually win otherwise it's the Tories for the foreseeable future.

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                      The IMF are about as economically right wing as you can get. If there are that many more economists who oppose Labour’s spending plans, where are they? I mean, actual expert economists, not hacks. Wolf has a background in economics, but offers nothing but a sour aversion to anything bar a riff on the status quo.

                      Not all the signatories of the letter are left leaning. One of them vehemently opposed their plans at the last election.

                      The IFS figures are interesting. But I always say that manifestos are aspirational. If Labour achieve one third of their ideas, it’s a triumph. Any change is worth pursuing, because frankly, the current orthodox dogma is rank. The country has stagnated. Radical rethinks are needed concerning long term investments and infrastructure development. Cutting your way to prosperity has not worked at all.

                      The Lib Dems advocate yet more austerity with their nonsensical ‘spend within your means’ mantra. Household economics cannot be applied to something as complex as national economics. It won’t work and it hasn’t worked. The Tories have led an ideological crusade to relocate wealth within society, that even the IMF said has been a terrible policy.

                      I agree that they won’t win. The press are too powerful, as are the social media lying machines utilised by the party of wealth. The ATROCIOUS record of the Tories has been lost, masked by Brexit soundbites. It’s why they repeat that cretinous phrase every single time they appear in public. They have nothing to celebrate from the last 9 years, so they hide behind ‘Get Brexit Done.’ It’s incredible that the Right attack Labour for their ‘magic money tree’ and ‘magic wand’ economic strategy, yet subscribe to the precise same thing themselves. ‘Get Brexit Done at it’ll all be ok. Our power will be unleashed! Unchained from the constraints of Europe, we shall stand tall and flourish!’ Yeah, it’s almost like waving a magic wand.

                      Had this election not been about Brexit, then the Tories would be more visibly threatened. Their tenure has been absolutely terrible, and not one of them seems to be able to say how austerity was worthwhile.

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by prinnysquad View Post
                        Had this election not been about Brexit, then the Tories would be more visibly threatened.
                        I find that statement questionable.

                        Even if it wasn't Brexit lead, Corbyn is deeply unpopular within his own party base.








                        [lower charts]

                        That a pretty bleak picture for Corbyn. It's not that people think Johnson is great, just that Corbyn is far worse.

                        The polling in 2017 saw a big decline for the Tories (May was not much liked either), that hasn't happened this time around.



                        Corbyn has clawed back a small percentage in the last days of the GE campaign, but it doesn't look like it will be enough.



                        [source]
                        Last edited by MartyG; 11-12-2019, 09:04.

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                          [MENTION=42]MartyG[/MENTION], I wish you'd occasionally back up your spurious claims with some facts and charts or something.

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                            There was an ex-MP on LBC two or three nights ago, I think he was ex-Tory but I can't recall his name but he was saying that in his opinion the result would be a small Tory majority and he didn't see any other outcome as being likely at all. However, he said that in his eyes the victory for Johnson was very contextual to the circumstances and the situation from the last decade meaning that he felt the party had learnt nothing and that when the next GE takes place in 5 years time the Tories will collapse hard against Labour like they did to Tony Blair in the 90's.




                            Latest YouGov poll puts Laboru 2 points closer cutting the projected Tory majority from 68 seats to 28.

                            The Plaid Cymru leader has called for changes to make lying by politicians a criminal offense

                            Johnson starts his last day in poor form after being confronted by the Good Morning Britain reporter Jonathan Swain and immediately his aide says on live air 'oh for f***s sake'. The interviewer then asks Johnson if he'll finally be interviewed on the show before pointing out they're broadcasting live, Johnson and his aide then hid in a fridge from which they could be heard comparing it to hiding in a bunker.

                            Ironically, the SNP have shifted their campaigning towards the second referendum on Brexit, turns out voters haven't been that energised by the second independence referendum promise.
                            Last edited by Neon Ignition; 11-12-2019, 10:42.

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                              And yet this woman is still running as a Tory candidate: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a9241666.html

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                                "Stong" and stable.

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