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What Makes Us Human?

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    #16
    Yep, animals and nature create their own catastrophes. We're just looking at animals right now, at a single point in time. Millions of species went extinct before we even existed and some of that would have been one species wiping out another, or stripping their habitat of all the resources they needed for survival or they launched nukes at each other... okay, maybe not that last one.

    I don't think as animals our nature is any worse than other animals or that they have more of an awareness of their own balance than we do. It's just we got really good at some things they aren't so good at. If foxes had the tech to stripmine rats into extinction and then starve due to lack of food, I'm pretty sure they'd do it. I think our advances outstrip our collective intelligence to use those advances sometimes. It could be the death of us all. Or it could save us all. The planet will die eventually with or without us. It's a question of when. But we could be one step ahead of all of that and have made plans to be long gone by that point.

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      #17
      That is true, although nature has a tendency to adapt and retain balance. I don’t want to get all ‘down’ on humans as a species, but I’m struggling to see where we fit into nature. At the top of the food chain (thanks to intelligence rather than any biological reason), and with nothing to check and balance us, our role tends to be to consume, pollute, cause habitat destruction and destabilise. It’s a role akin to that that an alien organism could have on an ecosystem. I’ve always pondered where we actually fit in on this planet.

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        #18
        I think you’ve said yourself where we fit in - at the top of the food chain. Any other animal at the top of the food chain would also be rinsing resources remorselessly without thought for anything but immediate benefit.

        Not that it’s a good thing obviously. We’ve basically doomed the planet and ourselves, even though we didn’t need to. Pretty depressing and best not to think too much about it really.

        Our capacity for self reflection should’ve helped us avoid this fate, but sadly we’re unable to reach global consensus on stuff like not causing climate death.

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          #19
          Originally posted by prinnysquad View Post
          That is true, although nature has a tendency to adapt and retain balance
          I don't think it does though. Cut back several million years and nature would have looked very different. Even without us existing, cut to several million years into the future and you would see again something very different. It is ever changing and there will be times that it could be completely out of whack, with some species dominating and others being wiped out. I just think we look at what nature is right now and accept that as balance because it's what we were born into. But it wouldn't stay that way because it never does. If it were a graph, it would be a seriously bumpy ride.

          But yeah, at the top of the food chain and with nothing to keep us in check except for disease, suicide and accidents we run rampant without thinking of the consequences. We're hugely damaging and there is no doubt about that. I get where you're coming from. But it's not that we're like aliens or don't belong - any other dominant species does the same. It's just we got really, really good at it.

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            #20
            Originally posted by wakka View Post
            I think you’ve said yourself where we fit in - at the top of the food chain. Any other animal at the top of the food chain would also be rinsing resources remorselessly without thought for anything but immediate benefit.

            Not that it’s a good thing obviously. We’ve basically doomed the planet and ourselves, even though we didn’t need to. Pretty depressing and best not to think too much about it really.

            Our capacity for self reflection should’ve helped us avoid this fate, but sadly we’re unable to reach global consensus on stuff like not causing climate death.
            That’s the crux. Throughout history, any other animal at the top of the food chain hasn’t (as far as I know) managed to create such global-level catastrophe. Our unique intelligence has allowed us to develop technology that have allowed us to royally screw up the balance of the planet in an extremely short space of time. Yet we aren’t developed enough beyond base animal instincts to reverse it.

            Does it mean nature - through its capacity to create us - is self-destructive itself?

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              #21
              Originally posted by Dogg Thang View Post
              I don't think it does though. Cut back several million years and nature would have looked very different. Even without us existing, cut to several million years into the future and you would see again something very different. It is ever changing and there will be times that it could be completely out of whack, with some species dominating and others being wiped out. I just think we look at what nature is right now and accept that as balance because it's what we were born into. But it wouldn't stay that way because it never does. If it were a graph, it would be a seriously bumpy ride.

              But yeah, at the top of the food chain and with nothing to keep us in check except for disease, suicide and accidents we run rampant without thinking of the consequences. We're hugely damaging and there is no doubt about that. I get where you're coming from. But it's not that we're like aliens or don't belong - any other dominant species does the same. It's just we got really, really good at it.
              re, your first point. I’m not so sure, Dogg. Although other species do manipulate the environment to their ends, it’s not done on such an industrial scale as we manage. We terraform the planet through tech. Our bodies aren’t really suited to any habitat, because we have this ability to manipulate surroundings.

              Over millions of years, the Earth in terms of physical make up hasn’t changed that much. Biomes are pretty constant - even if they shift positions or intensity. The cities and farmlands we create are artificial constructs. Of course, it can be argued that because we are a product of nature, then they are a product of nature too. However, they are unlike anything seen before in ‘nature’. I can’t think of a similar precedent in history, whereby one species has had such a dramatic impact on the planet as a whole. Of course species rise and fall and habitats get stripped or ruined. I just struggle to contextualise our impact as part of a balance.
              Last edited by prinnysquad; 11-04-2019, 16:43.

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                #22
                Originally posted by prinnysquad View Post
                Does it mean nature - through its capacity to create us - is self-destructive itself?
                I think it's that it can go any direction. There isn't a right or wrong. A virus can kill its host and, in doing so, kill itself. That's self-destructive. But then tigers can be created and they look totally awesome and that's cool. But then tigers kill and eat other things and that's not always very nice. Ultimately, it's just a bunch of stuff. We're all just a bunch of stuff.

                But yeah, we have totally messed up and, even then, most of our context for wanting to do something about it is still our species survival and wellbeing. We drove many species to extinction and just made a sad face for a moment before going off to do the same to some other species. But now we've gone so far that things could get really bad not just for animals and whatever but for us.

                This is why I think there needs to be a strength in goodness. A willingness to be strong and stand up for others, be they people, animals or whatever you like, and a compassion. We have the ability to do all of that but self-interest runs rampant and it often wins because there is a strength in selfishness. A strength in anger. Even a strength in fear. So when you have a better vision for the world, I think it's crucial that you don't accept the "it's hard" or "it will never happen" or "well what are all the details of the plan?" because those are just attempts to shut down a journey in a better direction because some don't want to take on any of that responsibility themselves. Some are in a position to do big things to help us do better. Most of us can't but we can retain that desire and help out in the little things where we can and we can try where able not to accept those who would destroy the world just because they can.

                Edit: on your next post, as you say the difference is tech. That's what I'm saying - we got good at it. If ANY other species on the planet could, they would. We're just one of them. Environmental factors, nature and imbalances wiped out species after species before we were ever around. These things happened. We didn't do it. We just came along and showed all those other weak-ass species how you REALLY ravage a planet.
                Last edited by Dogg Thang; 11-04-2019, 16:45.

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                  #23
                  I think I’ve depressed myself.

                  Species going by the wayside is just a fact of existence. We manage to achieve that on a huge scale, AND wreck habitats and ecosystems on a planetary scale. All the while, we possess the brains to do something about it, yet collectively choose not to.

                  Being human, then. The inability to prevent base animal interests from overruling morality and long term preservation.

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                    #24
                    Originally posted by prinnysquad View Post
                    Being human, then. The inability to prevent base animal interests from overruling morality and long term preservation.
                    Yeah, I think that's one fair definition. Dogg mentioned compassion, as well. I think our capacity for compassion is part of what makes us human. You don't see much of that in other species.

                    Also: forums. Animals don't have forums. I have no idea how they get their pictures of Megadrive games people have bought, it must be really difficult.

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                      #25
                      Well yeah, Wakka is right. Think of it this way in order to get yourself out of your dark place. Big angry dinosaur predators would kill and eat everything if they could. Turned out they all died anyway. Many animals will rampage where they can and, if they could, they’d keep at it until nothing is left. We can destroy habitats and wreck our planet and we have particular skill for that. We create wars. We create weapons that make zero sense because they could take us all out with them. That’s all true and it’s terrible. It’s horrible.

                      But, unlike those dinosaur predators, there are those of us who will stop and wonder whether this is right. Those of us who will consider what it’s like for our prey or our enemies. Those of us who wake up one morning and make a decision to do better. Or we can make art. Music. We can write a story to make a child smile or brighten their day. We can write stories to make us think. And when our neighbours struggle, we’re often there to lend a hand because we know how we’d feel if we were them. Those dinosaurs didn’t do that. Animals around us, as balanced as we may want to believe they are, spend their days taking life and struggling to survive. They don’t do it either.

                      So yeah, we’re capable of terrible things but we’re capable of really amazing things too. And if that part of us catches up with tech, imagine how amazing the world could be.

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                        #26
                        Yep, the self centred nature of mankind and it's negative impact on the environment can also have a potential upside.

                        We're not there yet but imagine in the more distant future an extinction level event is on the way such as meteor. Literally no other species on the planet carries the capacity to avert that disaster but it's not inconceivable that humans will be able to potentially save countless species from mass extinction in one such event thanks to their approach to existence. It's the balance between impact and accomplishment mankind has always struggled with.

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