Originally posted by Asura
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Avengers: Endgame (spoilers thread)
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Just watched it. Loved it. More impressions soon but on Rogers my impression (possibly incorrectly) was that he still somehow jumped back when he had lived out his life. So that past we see at the end is a different past but, as stated, he lived out his life in a linear way. Not sure that was the intention but I assumed it was and so didn’t even consider there to be a problem until I read this thread.
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My very spoilery impressions... yeah, I totally loved it. Basically every single thing in this movie worked for me. It’s a long movie and there were some beat to beat things that I found myself wondering about but, in the end, none of those amounted to a negative. As in it wasn’t just good in spite of them - they turned out to be a non-issue. Like, for example, it felt like they figured out time travel bizarrely easily. But then that was really to get us to the next part and I didn’t wonder about it again because the pacing worked.
And on the pacing, I really like that this movie had room to breathe. There were a lot of character moments, something Infinity War didn’t seem to have time for, and they really worked here. It also brought all the movies together in a way that felt far more important than Infinity War - that’s not a negative about Infinity War, it’s that these are two very different movies. And that’s why I certainly didn’t get any feeling that this was one story split. I can’t possibly see it working as one narrative. It’s not. It’s a movie and then a whole other movie. It’s not a second Infinity War or just a spillover and I’m glad it’s not. So this movie went to many places that Infinity War didn’t in a way that felt like a real wrap up. Callbacks to loads of stuff but all serving the story.
I have to give props to the Marvel marketing department for not spoiling the movie at all. I had no idea it would go to five years later and I had no idea that half the cast who turned up were going to be in it. So the movie had a load of really pleasant surprises. Great to see the Ragnarok crew in particular. But also totally loved what they did with Banner and what they did with Thor (he stole many scenes in the movie) and how Jane was in it and I could go on. Lots of surprises.
And every thread in the movie paid off. The big finish was incredible and, in spite of so much going on, didn’t seem to suffer from the sense that there was so much happening that it didn’t matter. I could keep track of everyone and everything - the glove relay really helped ground that. And out of all the moments that went for emotion, it was Captain Marvel’s return that brought tears to my eyes. We all knew she’d come back and the second the guns shifted position I knew what was happening but, even knowing it, the power of seeing her do her thing was immense. It’s like if I was religious and Jesus had turned up to kick ass. That’s the role she has already - she’s the angel of the Marvel world. There was something spiritual about her.
I’m so glad they made this feel like an ending and really wrapped up a bunch of the characters. It doesn’t end of course but it’s the end of many journeys here. But also felt like the start of some new ones, like giving Sam the shield or how Valkyrie was given Thor’s role and Pepper now has an Iron Man suit. Essentially they were all given replacements without doing it in a cheap way. And they might not ever use them that way but I just thought it was really cool that they had a definitive ending while also giving a sense of a new beginning.
So yeah, I thought it was fantastic.
I did think it was funny that sometimes a character might suggest they could use the glove to bring others back too and it was all just NO YOU CAN’T DO THAT and I didn’t know why. Like I said at the start, not even a negative - it’s just the way they made it work. And yeah, the whole Banner/Hulk thing in Infinity War led to nothing but that’s really an issue with Infinity War now rather than this movie. I was also surprised that time travel was not given dire consequences at all. What’s to stop them just nipping around time grabbing stuff now? Nothing, that’s what. Dead person? Jump in just before they are killed, grab them and take them to a minute after they were killed. Yes, they’ll still be killed but also alive again according to these rules. They could even grab the glove from themselves at the end of this movie and use it to remove any threat.
One last thought... I get why Stark didn’t want to risk losing anything in his life but think about the consequences of people being gone, dead, for five years and then just all coming back. How many husbands or wives moved on? What happens when they turn up for work on Monday and the world just doesn’t have those jobs any more? One hell of a mess is created at the end of this movie.
Edit: also the dude from Ring was in it!Last edited by Dogg Thang; 28-04-2019, 19:02.
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Originally posted by Dogg Thang View PostI have to give props to the Marvel marketing department for not spoiling the movie at all.
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Originally posted by Dogg Thang View PostMy very spoilery impressions... yeah, I totally loved it. Basically every single thing in this movie worked for me. It’s a long movie and there were some beat to beat things that I found myself wondering about but, in the end, none of those amounted to a negative. As in it wasn’t just good in spite of them - they turned out to be a non-issue. Like, for example, it felt like they figured out time travel bizarrely easily. But then that was really to get us to the next part and I didn’t wonder about it again because the pacing worked.
And on the pacing, I really like that this movie had room to breathe. There were a lot of character moments, something Infinity War didn’t seem to have time for, and they really worked here. It also brought all the movies together in a way that felt far more important than Infinity War - that’s not a negative about Infinity War, it’s that these are two very different movies. And that’s why I certainly didn’t get any feeling that this was one story split. I can’t possibly see it working as one narrative. It’s not. It’s a movie and then a whole other movie. It’s not a second Infinity War or just a spillover and I’m glad it’s not. So this movie went to many places that Infinity War didn’t in a way that felt like a real wrap up. Callbacks to loads of stuff but all serving the story.
I have to give props to the Marvel marketing department for not spoiling the movie at all. I had no idea it would go to five years later and I had no idea that half the cast who turned up were going to be in it. So the movie had a load of really pleasant surprises. Great to see the Ragnarok crew in particular. But also totally loved what they did with Banner and what they did with Thor (he stole many scenes in the movie) and how Jane was in it and I could go on. Lots of surprises.
And every thread in the movie paid off. The big finish was incredible and, in spite of so much going on, didn’t seem to suffer from the sense that there was so much happening that it didn’t matter. I could keep track of everyone and everything - the glove relay really helped ground that. And out of all the moments that went for emotion, it was Captain Marvel’s return that brought tears to my eyes. We all knew she’d come back and the second the guns shifted position I knew what was happening but, even knowing it, the power of seeing her do her thing was immense. It’s like if I was religious and Jesus had turned up to kick ass. That’s the role she has already - she’s the angel of the Marvel world. There was something spiritual about her.
I’m so glad they made this feel like an ending and really wrapped up a bunch of the characters. It doesn’t end of course but it’s the end of many journeys here. But also felt like the start of some new ones, like giving Sam the shield or how Valkyrie was given Thor’s role and Pepper now has an Iron Man suit. Essentially they were all given replacements without doing it in a cheap way. And they might not ever use them that way but I just thought it was really cool that they had a definitive ending while also giving a sense of a new beginning.
So yeah, I thought it was fantastic.
I did think it was funny that sometimes a character might suggest they could use the glove to bring others back too and it was all just NO YOU CAN’T DO THAT and I didn’t know why. Like I said at the start, not even a negative - it’s just the way they made it work. And yeah, the whole Banner/Hulk thing in Infinity War led to nothing but that’s really an issue with Infinity War now rather than this movie. I was also surprised that time travel was not given dire consequences at all. What’s to stop them just nipping around time grabbing stuff now? Nothing, that’s what. Dead person? Jump in just before they are killed, grab them and take them to a minute after they were killed. Yes, they’ll still be killed but also alive again according to these rules. They could even grab the glove from themselves at the end of this movie and use it to remove any threat.
One last thought... I get why Stark didn’t want to risk losing anything in his life but think about the consequences of people being gone, dead, for five years and then just all coming back. How many husbands or wives moved on? What happens when they turn up for work on Monday and the world just doesn’t have those jobs any more? One hell of a mess is created at the end of this movie.
Edit: also the dude from Ring was in it!
I was thinking about the people being dead stuff.
As you say, they came back exactly as they left, but everyone else has had to the live years or mourning and the collapse of the world.
Also we know that people who didn’t vanish , yet were killed by thanos or as part of the process of undoing what he did , did not return (such as vision)
So what about all the people that died in car crashes , as the driver disappeared? Air planes? People in the middle of surgery ?
The people stabilising ladders for others?
Did they get unkilled?
Did people return in the spot where they were when they disappeared? Did s bunch of people reappear at cruising altitude only to immediately freefall to their death?
Is everyone going to have to rush to where they were when their baby or toddler disappeared?
Will loads of babies die as they end up alone in derelict house?
What about babies from pregnancies? Did a bunch of women become unpregnant? Do he babies go back to them or simply back to the point in space where they vanished from, or are they couple at all times to the mother?!
Do Audi even need to re-employ the entire 50% of their missing workforce, during the 5 years they entirely restructured and moved to autonomous Development and manufacturing.
Just too many questions,Last edited by EvilBoris; 28-04-2019, 20:31.
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I think anyone who died as a result of a secondary event would still be dead. But yeah, lots of questions about how that would all work.
Edit: also my brain has now decided to revolt against the idea of the stones being returned. Two of them have to have been very tricky with one of them maybe being impossible to return.Last edited by Dogg Thang; 28-04-2019, 21:30.
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Originally posted by Dogg Thang View PostI think anyone who died as a result of a secondary event would still be dead. But yeah, lots of questions about how that would all work.
Stark could've wished, in his head, "bring back everyone who was killed by Thanos during the snappening, anyone killed as a direct result of it, and also freeze time for 5 minutes during which I want to manifest a Subway meatball marinara footlong on Italian herbs and cheese bread (not just the Italian herbs bread, that is not what I'm asking for), also don't bring back Black Widow or Vision kthxbye"
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I feel like you have to kind of just go with Endgame just like you have to go with Infinity War. They are master classes of delivering multi-franchised pay offs and fan service in a cohesive manner.
But as films in their own right they're a mess.
I enjoyed Endgame, there's so many great moments in there and in a 'don't think about it' kind of way it's amazing. I could list so many great moments but I imagine everyone is largely agreed on what they are. For the things that don't work:
-Hulk: Other than some nice humour, didn't work at all for us. At this point I think I'd rather he died during Endgame as Marvel has him pop up but because he doesn't get his own film he makes arc jumps with every appearance. Sometimes they work and other times they don't and this was one that doesn't. He just comes across as cheesy and it's frankly hard to imagine Hulk would allow Banner to do the process to lead to this. This is a route that would have been better served leaving till a later film and instead paying off IW's arc for him which now simply feels like a cheap excuse to get Hulk out of events.
-Thor: It was funny, his fatness and down and out humour was great. Then about 15 minutes passed and it got old. A bit like Hulk, it sometimes feels like they don't know what to do with Thor so they have him leap along too much to unnatural states. Not awful, again there's a lot of great moments involving the character, but not done the way I'd have preferred and I cannot--- cannot stress enough that I am praying to god that he isn't in Guardians 3. That film needs to fittingly wrap that series up, not be a cameo show for a character that's already had his turn.
-Time Travel: If you choose not to roll with it then it's a thread that keeps unravelling. Ironically given the BTTF jokes in the film, the time travel logic of Endgame doesn't hold up at all and in a worse way than the movie logic it pokes at. Asura points out the logic you need to work in to make Caps ending work which is doable but the Stones and Thanos and the films climax don't adhere to the films internal logic at all. Marvel will have to come up with some sort of McGuffin about this as well as it's a problematic tech to exist going forward.
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Originally posted by Superman Falls View PostI am praying to god that he isn't in Guardians 3.
How does Thanos at the end not adhere to the time travel logic? Time travel is tricky business but I wasn't seeing a flaw.
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Originally posted by Superman Falls View PostMarvel will have to come up with some sort of McGuffin about this as well as it's a problematic tech to exist going forward.
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For me Banner serving a similar role in Ragnarok worked because that film was a standard sequel entry, Guardians 3 is the final entry for that cast and the closing chapter for that franchise. Having Thor +1 joke his way through it would be a distraction GOTG doesn't need for me.
The trouble with Thanos at the end is that he's taken from the pre-existing canon. It could be side stepped if the film didn't set up the need to return objects to their own timeline. It's like how Banner explains and then also has that explanation expanded on when he goes for the Time Stone
Say for example the Avengers exist on the main timeline. Each goes back and retrieves Infinity Stones, this creates branching timelines for timelines they have created. First there's the issue that when they return to the present it should be the present day in the alternate timeline they've just created meaning they can A-not return to the main timeline without returning the Stones (busting the plan) and B-cannot meet up as they exist on separate timelines from one another)
But even if we push that aside and say that when they time travel they also leap between the alternate realities they've created and come back to their mainline timeline - They use the Stones and then have to return them to restore the original timeline and stop the splinters. However, Thanos is a major breach of this, he travels out of 2014 and is killed thereby never returning. Anyway Thanos pans out he creates the very issue they try to avoid by returning the Infinity Stones back in time.
There's also the issue that Steve will go back to return the Space Stone. But he can't as he needs it to be in the Tesseract which was destroyed to free it and he can't make a new one rendering that entire mission failed. Even if he succeeds they've made it so Loki now escaped New York with it changing events completely. Thor also took his hammer so now we're in the territory of Cap having to create a Tesseract, return the Space Stone to 1970, travel to 2012 and capture Loki to return him back to capture and restore those events, travel to Asgard to return Thor's hammer to Dark World events and then there's five more Stones. He has to meet Red Skull and return the Soul Stone which I think in theory he shouldn't be able to do depending on how that works. There's a few other wrinkles but it's a bit of a tangled mess just to even get near to where he could think of going back to Peggy.
Him being with Peggy can only be one of two things. Either he restores all divergent points of time just to selfishly risk it by diverging it for himself and changing loads of peoples lifetime interactions, relationships etc (which is a character betrayal) or you take it as it always happened and in past films and the series when Peggy said she was married but didn't share much on her husband she knew and meant knowingly it was Steve. That's fine but it gets into the territory that every timeline event in the film carries meaning and impacts on events. All potentially workable until...
Thanos.
He travels forwards from 2014 to a 2023 that isn't his own future. It's a bit like the Star Trek Kelvin timeline but in Endgame we stick with the original timeline and have the characters from Kelvin pop in. It's the only way it works, which means it doesn't matter if he dies at the end as the film suggests it doesn't... but all the above tells us it is important to restore past changes.
Basically the film is trying to have its cake and eat it. Events both matter and don't matter, characters both can and can't be resurrected, timeline rules apply and also don't apply.
It's like you're earlier post said, it seems nerdy but it's important as the same rules that revived Gamora and meant they could fight and kill a past version of Thanos literally mean they're free to go back and bring back a past Natasha, Tony, Loki, Asgard, Coulson etc without issue and yet the film wants us to believe that's off the table despite doing it when it's convenient.
So-so much messier than BTTF and could be a question hanging over future films depending on what they do next as it cheapens the stakes. It really is a great watch but I do wonder if there was a better way than time travel.
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Originally posted by Superman Falls View PostHe travels forwards from 2014 to a 2023 that isn't his own future
The need to return the stones to their own timeline was not to keep time intact or anything like that. It was that it would have repercussions for a new linear timeline that would start from the moment the stone was removed. So people didn't have to be returned. That's not how it worked. Even if the stones weren't returned, the present that the characters were living in wouldn't change.
The issue there is an entirely different one. The Sorceress said that the stones were all needed to keep things safe, presumably all the aspects of the stones. Well in our timeline, Thanos destroyed the stones. So isn't that now a problem?Last edited by Dogg Thang; 29-04-2019, 10:44.
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Originally posted by Superman Falls View PostSo from a timeline perspective things carry on as is but death is meaningless.
I think the comics tended to be resolved by the way they handled parallel realities. I'm not an expert in their lore, but from what I understand (correct me if I'm wrong, if we have some comic Jedi here) they defined that there were many parallel realities, but not an infinite number; it was a relatively finite number, like in the thousands. When things like this happened, they tended to pull in all of the different realities and establish that when Thanos snaps his fingers (or similar), that action echoes across all realities and effects everyone equally - except for Earth-1218, which is "the real world" and for reasons is exempt from these things.
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