Avengers: Endgame (spoilers thread)

[Dogg Thang]

Well death has meaning in the sense that it happens and it sticks. But you could jump back and take someone before death - although technically it’s a different person and the death still happened.

It’s important to remember that it’s all about that single timeline point of view and that’s what we’re seeing. Within that the rule is simple: you can’t change your past. If you go back, that’s now your future and the future is your past and, as established, you can’t change your past.

That’s why the only real issue is Rogers at the end but only if you take it that he was living in that timeline, which would mean the past was changed. But I didn’t take it that way when watching the movie, possibly because they were very clear on that rule.

One caveat to that is that it related to their time travel methods. The time stone might work completely differently.

[Neon Ignition]

How come Thanos could use the time stone to rewind Visions death but Strange can't do the same for Tony?

[Dogg Thang]

How come Thanos could use the time stone to rewind Visions death but Strange can't do the same for Tony?

No idea but the mechanics of the stones have never been given any details. One very obvious quirk with the stones in Infinity War comes when Thanos uses the reality stone because what he does there is undone when he leaves. Why? I have no idea. Nobody in the movie seemed to ask. Could the time stone work in a similar way in that he could use it to rewind a little pocket of time enough to get the stone from Vision but it wasn't going to be a permanent rewind beyond what he could pluck from it? I don't know. They really don't go into it. Like, if all six stones are seemingly huge magic what really was to stop them bringing the other dead people back? We're not given any reason at all but we don't have enough info to think it's wrong either. It's a made up thing and they just decided this is how they work.

There is another difficulty with returning the stones though. You can't change your past. So when you go back to a point in your past, you effectively create a new branch and your own future is still intact. That's all okay. The problem occurs on a return trip. Because in your past, those stones were never taken. So how do you return there to replace them? It's a messy one but then time travel always is and, like I say, it's all made up and we're not given a huge amount of info. Maybe the quantum realm is like doorways and you can pick a different exit point. This is how they were planting a living Loki even without technically undoing his death (one escaped) and I don't know if they are going to do this but, for the Wanda and Vision show, there is now a timeline where Thanos didn't kill Vision because he had long left that time before that could happen.

[Neon Ignition]

The luckiest person is Peter Parker. He may have been dusted for fortunately for him so was literally every other person who appears in his movies

One nice thing, because is never happens, that in 1970 they cast the Agent Carter TV series Jarvis in the role. An incredibly rare TV series > Movie transition.

[Asura]

...for the Wanda and Vision show, there is now a timeline where Thanos didn't kill Vision because he had long left that time before that could happen.

I really, really hope that kind of thing doesn't happen. All that "which alternate continuity is this?" is for DC's live-action offerings. Marvel need to stay the hell away from that.

Deadpool the only thing I make allowances for as its 18-rated nature can't really gel with the rest of the franchise.

[Dogg Thang]

I really, really hope that kind of thing doesn't happen. All that "which alternate continuity is this?" is for DC's live-action offerings. Marvel need to stay the hell away from that.

Yep, I can't disagree but they have opened up a big can of worms and have two shows coming that feature dead people: Loki and WandaVision. And they definitely seemed to be setting up Loki with this exact mechanic. Like I say, I have no idea if they'll do that for Vision too but they can. Like you, I hope this isn't the case.

[Asura]

Yep, I can't disagree but they have opened up a big can of worms and have two shows coming that feature dead people: Loki and WandaVision. And they definitely seemed to be setting up Loki with this exact mechanic. Like I say, I have no idea if they'll do that for Vision too but they can. Like you, I hope this isn't the case.

I mean, I don't mind if they get them to the prime timeline sharpish and just STAY THERE.

[Neon Ignition]

Presumably all that 'transferring Visions mind' in Wakanda from IW will come into play for a revival too. No-one cares about Wanda and Vision though, most likely is the event series is a prequel set in Scotland before IW kicks off. A rom-com where they share affection over those deep fried kebabs

[randombs]

This thread makes my brain hurt

The ending was lovely. So many people were crying in the cinema. Wife was glad she took extra tissues. A guy next to her was properly gushing. It had sort of been ruined for me by someone on here mentioning that RDJ had only been contracted to do this many films so he’d likely die but Black Widow was a shock. Makes sense because Hawkeye has a family(even though he didn’t at the time).

[Dogg Thang]

(even though he didn’t at the time)

Harsh.

[EvilBoris]

Presumably all that 'transferring Visions mind' in Wakanda from IW will come into play for a revival too. No-one cares about Wanda and Vision though, most likely is the event series is a prequel set in Scotland before IW kicks off. A rom-com where they share affection over those deep fried kebabs

More dangerous than the Thanos

Imagine if they do a whole movie phase where Vision is dedicated to retrieving the time stone so he can add sugar back into Irn Bru.

Speaking of Irn Bru, there was a blurry bottle in New Asgard in the background of Thor's House.
I presume that was filmed in Scotland and not Norway?

[Deuteros]

I hated the whole 'Fat Thor' gag. If it had been portrayed as him being so stricken with grief that he withdrew from the world and let himself go, I'd be fine with it but they went with a mockery of just that. They could have handled the grief more sincerely and still joke about him after he had picked himself up.

"Lebowski" had me laughing!

[Neon Ignition]

It's the Ragnarok conundrum again, the more he mourns the more the MCU makes a laughing stock of him and it's too jarring a pitch to work. Infinity War did it better with its leaning towards it being a coping mechanism but Endgame loses it on that front because it doubles down on it.

One thing I saw on Era that was a fun read on the films events. When they go back in time as teams to the three locations, Widow and Hawkeye are sent to retrieve the Soul Stone but the Avengers know that doing so requires a sacrifice. Ant Man does make a joke about 'bagsy not being it' but it undermines the whole 'where's Natasha' because they had to send both of them knowing one would die. Any other Avenger combination would have meant the stone was irretrievable. Did the other Avengers plot Widows death....?

I also enjoyed Starks rant. "We're the Avengers, it's what we do right? Why aren't we the Prevengers?"

[Dogg Thang]

I don’t know if anyone knew how the soul stone deal worked. I don’t remember anyone getting that information from Thanos in Infinity War and that’s the only place they could have found out.

I loved Thor in this movie. I loved that they committed to it. I feel you guys are forgetting that, until Ragnarok, Thor was doomed to be the Avenger with the least interesting movies and probably the most boring Avenger. Ragnarok rescued Thor. And there was enough seriousness in the movie. I don’t think it was lacking in misery. We didn’t need more. Actually, I was a bit surprised to see a visit to Dark World in the movie given that it has to rank as one of the lowest tier Marvel movies on any list.

The more I was thinking about that Rogers problem, the more my brain convinces me that my reading was right - he did not live out his life in that timeline. Firstly, they straight up said that can’t happen but I can’t imagine he just quietly sat around in the shadows while others he knew needed help and also I reckon he probably was hanging out with Bucky, knowing he could do that in a different timeline. Then he returned to his own timeline for the end we saw. I reckon it was like that episode of Star Trek where Picard lived a whole other life.

[Neon Ignition]

Tony knew as it tied in with how they lost to Thanos on his home world, Nebula as well who worked it out the second Thanos first turned up with the stone and not Gamora so it's likely the rest of the team had the info for years. In either case it's a massive stroke of luck those specific two were sent after it.

I can appreciate Thors revival thanks to Ragnarok but for me this downfall was always specifically tied to Dark World. The Thor of the first film and Avengers and Infinity War is fine and balances the humour and dramatic angles perfectly. Ragnarok to me always feels like an over-reaction to Dark World. It's fine and is what it is in terms of bell curve but for Endgame it's too much to have him veer between hero and running gag film to film. Now Endgame is over and he's still around I'm assuming Marvel will stick with him being jokey here onwards which at this point is fine, it now just needs to be consistent in his development. Hulk... Hulk either needs some consistent screen time or to get killed off. His developments are getting weaker and weaker.

I think with Rogers I'm inclined to think that he did live his life with Peggy, it's just that the quirks of ret-conning that ending in don't work great because it wasn't originally planned that way. Presumably Steve was able to live a quiet life because he knew if he involved himself he would create time issues and for big events like New York he knew things would end okay.