PC Engine/TurboGrafx-16 mini

[Leon Retro]

but doesn't Xenon 2 just run in 16 colours? Looks good for it!

It was developed for the Atari ST. So it's a shame we didn't get a Xenon 3 that took advantage of how much better than Amiga hardware is overall. At least the Amiga version made impressive use of the Amiga's soundchip.

Developers have mentioned how publishers always put the Atari ST first prior to 1990. They naturally saw it as the lead platform due to its larger user base. But when the Amiga started to really take off in 1989, things gradually changed. You ended up with more focus on the Amiga and lots of developers committed to showing off the Amiga tech. It's why so many pre-1990 Amiga games are so poor or lackluster.

[buzz909]

It was developed for the Atari ST. So it's a shame we didn't get a Xenon 3 that took advantage of how much better than Amiga hardware is overall. At least the Amiga version made impressive use of the Amiga's soundchip.

Developers have mentioned how publishers always put the Atari ST first prior to 1990. They naturally saw it as the lead platform due to its larger user base. But when the Amiga started to really take off in 1989, things gradually changed. You ended up with more focus on the Amiga and lots of developers committed to showing off the Amiga tech. It's why so many pre-1990 Amiga games are so poor or lackluster.

Yes that makes sense. The developer could have probably upped the frame rate at least in the Amiga version if they had used the blitter.

One game that everyone always says is great on the Amiga is Rainbow Islands. But I'm sure that is effectively an ST port because it only runs in a small window (like a letterbox). It plays well - don't get me wrong but I just think from a technical point of view it could have been better.

[Leon Retro]

Yes that makes sense. The developer could have probably upped the frame rate at least in the Amiga version if they had used the blitter.

Yeah, the Amiga had the blitter as well as other chips to help out. The tech is much better than the ST. The only benefit of the ST is the slightly faster CPU that enables some 3D games(Stunt Car racer is one) to run a bit quicker.

One game that everyone always says is great on the Amiga is Rainbow Islands. But I'm sure that is effectively an ST port because it only runs in a small window (like a letterbox). It plays well - don't get me wrong but I just think from a technical point of view it could have been better.

People say that Amiga games with big borders are usually ST ports. That was common in the early years of the Amiga. Developers have talked about how publishers told them to target the ST and then port to the Amiga. When the Amiga began to dominate around 1990, you saw more focus on getting the most out of the machine. Amiga games began to fill the screen, do more with the hardware, and show off more colours.



Parasol Stars from 1992 makes good use of the Amiga. Looks similar to the PC Engine version.

[ZipZap]

I'm pretty sure Xenon 2 does use blitter. There's no hardware scrolling/sprites, it just blits the entire screen each frame (and by frame, I mean game frame, which is actually every third frame). You get parallax scrolling and loads of bullets on screen, but the frame rate is bad.

[Leon Retro]

I'm pretty sure Xenon 2 does use blitter.

It's said to use the blitter, but not very well. The game was very much designed for the Atari ST.

I don't think it would have been such a slow game if it had been designed for the Amiga and took full advantage of the hardware. At least the music was very impressive.

When you see what some devs did with the Amiga 500 tech from 1990 onwards, it really highlights how the hardware wasn't pushed much in the early years. The Atari ST was the lead platform.

[ZipZap]

It's said to use the blitter, but not very well. The game was very much designed for the Atari ST.

I don't think it would have been such a slow game if it had been designed for the Amiga and took full advantage of the hardware. At least the music was very impressive.

It probably uses the blitter as well as can be expected, it has to do a lot each frame, but usually games on the Amiga would combine blitter with hardware sprites (http://codetapper.com/amiga/sprite-tricks/). The fact that it doesn't is probably a symptom of its ST legacy.

I'm not an expert on ST/Amiga hardware by any means, but I think the root of the problem is it was designed around 3 layers of parallax scrolling and hundreds of bullets, rather than good gameplay. And at the time, a lot of people were very impressed! It just hasn't aged well.

You very rarely see PC Engine games with parallax scrolling because they don't waste resources on something that's largely cosmetic. A lot of 16 bit computer games took a different approach and would sacrifice frame rate for fancy scrolling, or other effects.

I haven't played Amiga Parasol Stars, but if it runs well, it's probably because it was based around the PC Engine version which put gameplay first. If it had been designed in the west, it would've probably had 6 layers of parallax scrolling and run at 17fps

[Leon Retro]

It probably uses the blitter as well as can be expected, it has to do a lot each frame, but usually games on the Amiga would combine blitter with hardware sprites (http://codetapper.com/amiga/sprite-tricks/). The fact that it doesn't is probably a symptom of its ST legacy.

From what I've read in comments made by people who know about the Amiga architecture, they say Xenon 2 doesn't make good use of the blitter. They say the game shouldn't run so slow(and at a low frame rate] if it were taking full advantage of the blitter. I think games that obviously take advantage of the Amiga show this opinion to be correct.

it would've probably had 6 layers of parallax scrolling and run at 17fps

Jim Power really shows off the A500 with loads of parallax and at 50fps.



Kid Chaos is a late[1994] game that the developer said pushes the A500 to the limits. There are a crazy amount of parallax layers in the background -- and it runs at 50fps. Maybe not as well designed as Sonic, but it shows that the A500 could deliver fast console-style experiences.



Uridium 2 is a silky fast shooter that runs at a very smooth 50fps.


Other notable games that run at 50fps were the Zool series, Turrican series, Lionheart, James Pond series, and the Amiga port of PC Kid/Bonk. Plus many more.

The A500 tech wasn't generally utilised properly when the Atari ST was(before 1990) the lead platform. Some developers did manage to show the A500's potential before that time, but around 1990 we really started to see the A500 shine with lots of console-style experiences that filled the screen, were full of colour, and ran really smoothly. Once top developers decided to really push the A500, the results were often very impressive. That's when the limitations of the ST next to the Amiga really became apparent. Of course, Atari released the STE, but Commodore UK had managed to make the A500 the 'must-have' computer by 1990.

[Nu-Eclipse]

I haven't played Amiga Parasol Stars, but if it runs well, it's probably because it was based around the PC Engine version which put gameplay first.

Considering that the PCE version of Parasol Stars is the original version (Taito never made a coin-op), what other version would the Amiga port have been based on?

[samanosuke]

The Amiga port of PC Kid (BC Kid) is great too. Wish more PCE games were ported to it - Hudson could’ve been onto something seeing as the PCE/TG16 was never released in Europe. Gunhed with parallax scrolling and a Bomb Da Bass soundtrack, anyone?

[samanosuke]

@Leon - the best thing about that Jim Power video is not the number or layers of parallax, but that amazing Chris Huelsbeck soundtrack. The game is tosh, sadly.

[ZipZap]

From what I've read in comments made by people who know about the Amiga architecture, they say Xenon 2 doesn't make good use of the blitter. They say the game shouldn't run so slow(and at a low frame rate] if it were taking full advantage of the blitter. I think games that obviously take advantage of the Amiga show this opinion to be correct.
Other notable games that run at 50fps were the Zool series, Turrican series, Lionheart, James Pond series, and the Amiga port of PC Kid/Bonk. Plus many more.

I'm not saying the Amiga can't do parallax at 50fps, but with Xenon 2 you're throwing literally hundreds of bullets in to the mix as well, and utilising no hardware sprites. You're right that it's built around what works (slowly!) on an ST, but the Amiga is never going to run that at 50fps either.

If you take a look at the examples you've given, there are generally very few moving objects on screen at any one time. Also, they will almost certainly be utilising hardware sprites to some degree, which are more limited, but far faster than using blitter objects. Notice how in the shmup sections of Turrican 2, your fire power is limited to a few shots at once, and compare that to what's possible when you power up in Xenon 2. That's largely the difference in frame rate.

Considering that the PCE version of Parasol Stars is the original version (Taito never made a coin-op), what other version would the Amiga port have been based on?

I think you're missing my point I know the PC Engine version was the original, and like most PC Engine games, they focussed on on 60fps whilst keeping the graphics functional. This smooth running, not so technically demanding game was then converted to the Amiga. With a lot of original Amiga/ST games, frame rates were seen as less important and so they had lots of fancy graphical effects, but scrapped in at 17 or 25fps. It's a sacrifice a lot of games were willing to make though and people raved about the likes of the Bitmap Bros at the time. It's only looking back that they often don't hold up very well.

[Nu-Eclipse]

I think you're missing my point I know the PC Engine version was the original, and like most PC Engine games, they focussed on on 60fps whilst keeping the graphics functional. This smooth running, not so technically demanding game was then converted to the Amiga. With a lot of original Amiga/ST games, frame rates were seen as less important and so they had lots of fancy graphical effects, but scrapped in at 17 or 25fps. It's a sacrifice a lot of games were willing to make though and people raved about the likes of the Bitmap Bros at the time. It's only looking back that they often don't hold up very well.

Fair point, although I never realised that PCE Parasol Stars was running at 60fps. I just assumed it had always been 30fps.

[CMcK]

The Amiga port of PC Kid (BC Kid) is great too. Wish more PCE games were ported to it - Hudson could’ve been onto something seeing as the PCE/TG16 was never released in Europe. Gunhed with parallax scrolling and a Bomb Da Bass soundtrack, anyone?

The miggy would struggle with Gunhead. Too many sprites and colours. Adding parallax scrolling would only make it worse. A lot of Amiga games sacrifice the second layer to keep up the pace and still use 32 colours. Uridium 2 drops to 16 colours to keep the second layer for example.

[buzz909]

Parasol Stars from 1992 makes good use of the Amiga. Looks similar to the PC Engine version.

It looks good! I remember now I had Parasol Stars demo on the Amiga. I definitely think Rainbow Islands could have been done better looking at that.

Xenon 2 could have probably used sprites for the a lot of the bullets and those wide laser bars as well. That would have saved some processing time drawing all of those. I used to write dodgy AMOS games and hardware sprites were great for bullets and long thin things. AMOS even multiplexed them automatically for you! (even many pro games didn't bother doing this)

You very rarely see PC Engine games with parallax scrolling because they don't waste resources on something that's largely cosmetic. A lot of 16 bit computer games took a different approach and would sacrifice frame rate for fancy scrolling, or other effects.

That's mainly because the PC engine can't do parallax scrolling properly - unless you use some sprites to draw an extra background or split the screen. As far as I know it doesn't have any extra playfields like the Amiga, SNES and MD do. If it was a hardware feature - it would be in every game for sure.

I remember playing R-Type on my friend's PCE. It was amazing. I later got the Amiga version and that was very good although not as good as the PCE game. Even so I was surprised at the time how good it was because at that time most Amiga games got nowhere near the arcade or PCE versions. I am wondering what Amiga arcade-style games are actually better than the PCE versions?? Only one I can think of off-hand is Shadow of the Beast 1

I think you're missing my point I know the PC Engine version was the original, and like most PC Engine games, they focussed on on 60fps whilst keeping the graphics functional. This smooth running, not so technically demanding game was then converted to the Amiga. With a lot of original Amiga/ST games, frame rates were seen as less important and so they had lots of fancy graphical effects, but scrapped in at 17 or 25fps. It's a sacrifice a lot of games were willing to make though and people raved about the likes of the Bitmap Bros at the time. It's only looking back that they often don't hold up very well.

Yes that's true a lot of Amiga games look great in screen shots but not always so slick when in action. The Team 17 games put an emphasis on 50fps with overscan (full screen). Alien Breed series was the best of those I think. It was good at the time to have a developer focus on the strengths of the Amiga.

One game I really like that has a low frame rate is Gods. The SNES one is crazy fast and the Megadrive version doesn't look as good. Probably because it has less colours to choose from. Amiga version all the way on that one. Because it's a more cerebal action game I didn't mind it being slow. Kind of added to the atmosphere

[samanosuke]

I am wondering what Amiga arcade-style games are actually better than the PCE versions?? Only one I can think of off-hand is Shadow of the Beast 1

Golden Axe and Ninja Warriors, but these are the exceptions and not the rule. R-Type 2 was much better on the Amiga than the original but it never got a PCE port to compare to. Shinobi, Outrun and Vigilante are sooooo much better on the PCE.