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    #61
    Originally posted by dvdx2 View Post
    a nice 600 TVL pvm would suit you nicely Leon; not overly sharp or soft, with excellent clarity and detail.
    Nooooo - I'm sure Leon knows this, but a 600TVL pvm (or even the much more forgiving 600 line ikegami tm20-17r looks way too heavily scanlined and pixellated for what he wants. A new/very low use consumer set is the only way for the soft-but-clean visuals he's talking about..

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      #62
      Brad: Maybe you're right, I don't think so though. I think if consumers in those days saw that, they'd recoil - I believe the developers ideally didn't want an overly pixellated image & would have preferred a more cohesive look for their games. just an opinion of course

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        #63
        Originally posted by andykara2003 View Post
        Nooooo - I'm sure Leon knows this, but a 600TVL pvm (or even the much more forgiving 600 line ikegami tm20-17r looks way too heavily scanlined and pixellated for what he wants. A new/very low use consumer set is the only way for the soft-but-clean visuals he's talking about..
        I know it’s preference, but I really do fail to see how anyone could prefer a low TVL consumer image, over that of a 600 line pvm!!

        I have also had a 20-17 and it’s definitely softer but still has a wayyyy more pleasing than something like a consumer trinitron.

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          #64
          Originally posted by andykara2003 View Post
          Not crusty! I have a brand new 14" Trinitron which is what I would have used back in the day if I wanted a 14" - a touch small for me, perhaps. Ironically, RGB does in fact look pretty authentic on that sized CRT as the phosphor density is such that even an otherwise pixellated image blends together nicely at that size. Even composite and s-video look reasonably good for the same reason. I much prefer a 25" screen however.
          Is it one of the Silver flat screen crts? That produces a nice image, but has a weird phosphor structure (almost like little dots) and an overly blue cool tint (probably 9300k), but that’s an argument for another day.

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            #65
            No - the last of the curved units. Those flat screens have horrible black levels too - although a cool tint is easily corrected.

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              #66
              Originally posted by andykara2003 View Post
              I've bought the 2-chip. Can anyone say whether this is an earlier or later board revision? There's not much info out there on the PAL units. Apparently the earlier revisions are better - less ghosting/interference:
              I have no idea about a PAL standard 1-chip SNES -- mine are both mini machines that have been modded for Csync. One is an American mini and the other the Super Famicom Jr.

              Anyway, maybe there's info out there on the net. I hope you like how the image looks.


              Originally posted by dvdx2 View Post
              a nice 600 TVL pvm would suit you nicely Leon; not overly sharp or soft, with excellent clarity and detail.
              I'm sure I would be impressed with the clarity and overall vibrancy. All I'm really saying is taste varies when it comes to how retro games should look. You can make the image on retro games look really soft, really sharp, and everything inbetween, so it's all about working out what makes you happy.

              The idea that extreme pixel definition and obvious scanlines is maybe "ideal" isn't really true, because it's all about personal taste. If someone does want retro games to look that way -- then they really do need a top quality PVM/BVM in their life. They won't be content with just a top quality consumer screen.

              So when it comes to how an image looks you have extremes -- from a Matsui using RF or Composite, to a decent CRT, Sony Trinitron, 1080p scaler, or a really high definition PVM/BVM. The key is finding a set up that makes you happy. The same with headphones and hi-fi equipment -- it's all about discovering what suits your personal taste.

              I really wish I had bought a decent BVM years ago when they were £50, because I love having all sorts of retro tech to enjoy. It's why I bought a 'de-blur' N64 when you and others were raving about them. I'm certainly not someone who dismisses things without wanting to try them out and make my mind up. If I had a spare £500-£1000, I'd buy a 20" BVM just to see what all the fuss is about.

              Originally posted by Brad View Post
              Back in the day if you could have had a flat lcd and an ossc you’d have thought that was the best way to play. We always wanted a sharper image than what we could actually get.
              It wasn't until the PlayStation era that I started comparing 3D games on PC to how they looked on consoles. Most console 3D games were still 320x240, whereas PC games were often running in 800x600. So I did appreciate how much clearer 3D games looked on a PC.

              But using a standard CRT with 2D games was never a problem. I never thought that 8-bit, 16-bit, or even 32-bit 2D games looked too soft on my Sony Trinitron.

              I've been using emulators to upscale retro games and scalers like the OSSC and Framemeister, but when I went back to a Trinitron CRT a while back, I didn't find the image too soft and lacking clarity. No, I was really surprised at how clear and vibrant the image was with machines like the NES, SNES, and PC Engine. You'd think that even a good consumer CRT screens would look far from impressive these days, but I find the image to be extremely impressive.

              One thing I especially enjoy about my Trinitron is how the scanlines aren't obvious from a few feet away. It's like they blend with the image to create a very attractive look. It made me realise that the scanlines in emulators need toning down quite a bit. I now adjust scalers and emulators to deliver an image that appeals to me. That's the key to enjoying and appreciating retro games.

              It's why people who plug retro consoles directly into LCD screens think retro games look terrible, because they're doing things completely wrong. Even games on an average CRT using Composite look beautiful compared to retro consoles directly into an LCD. So it really is all about respecting how retro games should look and then setting things up in a way that appeals to you. You can easily make retro games look bad in one way or another -- and then have an unfairly negative view of them.
              Last edited by Leon Retro; 23-09-2019, 18:08.

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                #67
                Dvdx2 - I have one myself, as well as a BVM 20E1E, NEC XM29+, High end Loewe E3001 chassis shadow mask, brand new 14 and 25" consumer trinitrons & a few other great CRTs. - it's all just opinion and personal preference

                Leon - you'd probably hate the BVM for 240p, it's extremely heavily scanlined and the opposite of what you're talking about - like an emulator or upscaler with maximum scanlines. They're great for 480p though - the Wii/GC look amazing on the D24.
                Last edited by andykara2003; 23-09-2019, 18:13.

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                  #68
                  Originally posted by andykara2003 View Post
                  Dvdx2 - I have one myself, as well as a BVM 20E1E, NEC XM29+, High end Loewe E3001 chassis shadow mask, brand new 14 and 25" consumer trinitrons & a few other great CRTs. - it's all just opinion and personal preference

                  Leon - you'd probably hate the BVM for 240p, it's extremely heavily scanlined and the opposite of what you're talking about - like an emulator or upscaler with maximum scanlines. They're great for 480p though - the Wii/GC look amazing on the D24.
                  Yep, personal preference.

                  I think we’ll agree to disagree.

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                    #69
                    I think we agree! It's personal preference

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                      #70
                      Originally posted by andykara2003 View Post
                      They're great for 480p though - the Wii/GC look amazing on the D24.
                      dvdx2 posted images of F-Zero GX on a top end BVM and said it looks stunning. I'm pretty sure I'd agree from what I could ascertain from looking at his pics.

                      When people talk about how great BVMs are, they always mention the clarity, pixel definition, and thick scanlines. When I create a similar effect using a scaler or emulator, I'm not really fond of how it looks. But of course, a BVM has its own overall look and vibe, so ideally it's best to try one out and see what you think. If I had loads of spare cash, I'd buy a BVM and decide if the image appeals to me.

                      I'm sure that people on hi-fi forums debate what are the 'best' speakers and headphones, but it will also come down to personal taste. Rubbish quality equipment is one thing -- but what someone considers to be making the most of audio and video is down to personal preference.

                      You can set up scalers and emulators in a similar way to how you use an 'equaliser' on a hi-fi, so everyone will adjust things to create an image that they feel happy with. So I think it's also the same with what type of CRT screen you enjoy using. It's just a shame that good condition BVMs aren't cheap and readily available, so that more people could at least give one a go.
                      Last edited by Leon Retro; 24-09-2019, 15:30.

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                        #71
                        Every 1-chip in except [MENTION=13863]speedlolita[/MENTION].

                        Last edited by Zaki; 24-09-2019, 10:07.

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                          #72
                          Originally posted by Leon Retro View Post
                          dvdx2 posted images of F-Zero GX on a top end BVM and said it looks stunning. I'm pretty sure I'd agree from what I could ascertain from looking at his pics.
                          480p on a BVM is a totally different story as opposed to 240p in it's look and feel. The resolution is much higher & those thick scanlines are gone - the image is cohesive and stunning.
                          Last edited by andykara2003; 24-09-2019, 10:55.

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                            #73
                            Originally posted by andykara2003 View Post
                            The resolution is much higher & those thick scanlines are gone - the image is cohesive and stunning.
                            Makes me think I'd buy a BVM just for F-Zero GX.

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                              #74
                              Originally posted by Leon Retro View Post
                              Makes me think I'd buy a BVM just for F-Zero GX.
                              Even a mid range pc monitor will produce excellent results! (Not wide screen though)

                              This a pic to my Ilyama crt monitor via a component to vga transcoder

                              Image 9-A49-DEC5-002-F-4723-B88-F-EE903-DE0-BD58 hosted in ImgBB


                              I’ll get some shots taken later of the F520 running it, which is a 4:3 version of the FW900 (which has pretty much the same tube as the BVM D24 (I think zaki is your man for that one!)

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                                #75
                                Originally posted by Leon Retro View Post
                                Makes me think I'd buy a BVM just for F-Zero GX.
                                You'd be better off with Dolphin, hi-res texture packs and running it at an internal resolution of 2 or 4K.
                                3DS FC (updated 2015): 0447-8108-3129

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